May 31, 2006
It's not just about kids and money, but about drugs and principles
The story of Joe Volpe playing some sort of inverted Santa Claus and accepting gifts from children is interesting:
The national Liberal Party said yesterday it has no reason to investigate donations to leadership candidate Joe Volpe from current and former executives of a generic drug firm and their relatives, but some Liberal MPs said they have qualms about accepting money from minors.
Mr. Volpe has received donations of $5,400 each from five current and former executives of Apotex Inc. and 15 of their relatives, including some who are under 18.
But the real interesting thing here is not that Volpe and his supporters are playing fast and loose with the rules. It's about who is giving the money:
Apotex chairman Barry Sherman, his wife Honey, and four of his children each donated $5,400, as did Apotex president Jack Kay, his wife Patricia, and two of his children.
A former vice-president of Apotex, Allen Shechtman, his wife Mary, and three of his children, also donated $5,400. Mr. Shechtman told The Globe on Monday that not all of the donors are adults, but did not specify their ages. He did not return a telephone call yesterday.
Bernard "Barry" Sherman of Apotex is a well known name. Apotex is a maker of generic drugs, and as such, is involved in intense lobbying. "Intense" is definitely a word used to describe Barry Sherman:
Sherman's tactics have made him infamous in the industry. Everyone has
a Barry Sherman story. His associates praise his brilliance and
integrity. His detractors say he has a chip on his shoulder, that he's
paranoid, bombastic, opportunistic. Paul Lucas, president of Glaxo
Wellcome Inc., the Canadian arm of Glaxo Wellcome PLC, the world's
largest pharmaceutical company, calls Sherman's conspiracy theories
"ludicrous." Apotex and Novopharm together control the Canadian
generic market in what amounts to an oligopoly, Lucas argues. Even
Dan [Leslie Dan, the chairman of the generic goliath Novopharm Ltd], who juggles his personal dislike for Sherman with the interests
they share as independent generic manufacturers, says Sherman's
litigious, bulldog approach has not been constructive for the sector.
Physician and
pharmaceutical entrepreneur Morton Shulman, who has tussled with
Apotex several times over the years, has called Sherman "the only
person I have ever met with no redeeming features whatsoever."
Nice company Volpe keeps. To be fair, Sherman has some choice words for his competitors too, and as a generic drug manufacturer, his products, which can sell for nearly 20% less than the brand name drugs, have saved the health care system millions.
But then, profitability is what drives the big multi-nationals to find new drugs.
Still, Sherman is more than just a guy looking to make more affordable drugs. He pushes the envelope and gets in trouble for it. Remember that fellow Shechtman who also gave money to Volpe (along with his wife and his three kids, not all of whom were adults)? Shechtman was described as a former VP of Apotex. So two families are donating to Volpe?
Turns out it is the same family, and that Shechtman and Sherman are as close as only two guys who have had run-ins with the FBI can be:
There was also that small clash with the FBI and the U.S. Food and
Drug Administration over a mail-order scheme Sherman engaged in with
his brother-in-law, Allen Shechtman. It involved a Bahamas-based
company called Medicine Club International Inc., which mailed
Apotex-manufactured generic drugs, including generic Prozac and
Deprenyl, from Canada to 500,000 households in the United States
without prescription. The FBI was allegedly tipped off by U.S. drug
manufacturers, no fans of Sherman.
In 1995, Medicine Club pleaded guilty to one count of illegal
interstate commerce and was fined $500,000 (U.S.) for selling drugs
without approval. It was also forced to pay $339,000 for investigative
costs.
So Shechtman and Sherman are brothers-in-law and partners in crime. Eleven members of this extended family has signed cheques to Volpe for $5,400 each.
For a guy who is so hyper-sensitive to jokes relating the Liberals to organized crime, Joe Volpe really doesn't make an effort to avoid the whole "crime family" thing.
But back to the issue of generic drugs and patent protection. Do you think Joe Volpe is going to promote a particular position when it comes to generic drugs?
Bill C-91 was passed by the Mulroney Conservatives in 1993, and it extended patent protection for name brand drugs to twenty years. In part, it was done as a realignment of Canadian laws to meet NAFTA obligations. The Liberals opposed the legislation intensely. True to form, though, when they formed the government in 1993, the Liberals became strong supporters of C-91. This was because the name brand manufacturers are headquartered in Quebec, and any law that guaranteed their profitability was a sure vote-getter in Quebec.
Principles be dammed when votes are to be had, right?
C-91 required that the effect of the new law be reviewed in 1997. By then the Liberals were in power, and so had an opportunity to kill the bill and make it easier for Canadian generic drug manufacturers to make their knock-offs.
The review in 1997 was conducted by David Dingwall, then the Minister of Health, and the end result is that C-91 is still the law of the land today.
Of course, we all remember David Dingwall for getting in trouble in 2005 for accepting $350,000 in continency fees as a lobbyist from Bioniche. Bioniche is, as it turns out, a pharmaceutical company with original discoveries to protect, including drug discoveries.
I'm not passing judgment on C-91. But the money involved in the realm of pharmaceutical patents is huge, and it looks like the players are shopping for potential ministers and prime ministers that can be counted upon to push their side of the debate. And these people are not satisfied with the ethical or financial strengths of their positions -- the stakes are too great. They are willing to throw lots of money around to make sure the right people are convinced the the righteousness of their position.
Liberal David Dingwall was a friend of the name-brand manufacturers, and was caught pulling a $350,000 cookie out of the cookie jar.
Today it looks like the generic drug manufacturers have found another Liberal, leadership candidate Joe Volpe, willing to argue the other side.
Seems like there are no right answers, or even principled positions, when it comes to the Liberal Party. On any issue, you are likely to find a senior member of the party who will take up your cause -- for consideration, of course. And when you don't have principles, accepting money from children is easy.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
09:18 PM
| Comments (9)
| Add Comment
Post contains 1124 words, total size 8 kb.
1
go easy on poor old "juicyfruit" he is entitled to his entitlements after all and if volpe wants to take candy from babies that too is ok. remember we're talking about the libranos, and it's not important how you play the game as long as you win that's all that matters.
Posted by: kelly at May 31, 2006 09:34 PM (/IrGj)
2
Infantile policy is standard for the Liberal Party of Toronto, so his constituent rich kids naturally support this fraud. And he'll pay them off handsomely as soon as he has the power, that's how the Party works.
Posted by: infidel at May 31, 2006 11:24 PM (7pBiD)
3
These kind of posts are your forte, and why I keep coming back. However, in my mind, this would be more convincing if there were any evidence that Volpe has supported or will support legislation favouring generic drug mfrs.
Posted by: Ben H at May 31, 2006 11:26 PM (D2c8R)
4
I consider Joe volpe as an "also ran" in the final leadership vote round, so it might be more useful if some reporter asked Rae or Ignatieff for their position on generic drugs. Crickets, chirp, chirp...
If C91 was passed in 1993, I wonder what drugs lose patent protection in 2013. The actual battle may be about extending additional rights. Joe's position in the party may be of some influence.
I have not looked at C91 specifically, but there is provision in patent law whereby if the original patent holder is not promoting or using the patent in Canada, any individual or group can petition the Patent Office for the right to use the patent. Some reporter might look around to see if certain drug patents are not being used. Crickets, chirp, chirp.....
Posted by: john at June 01, 2006 04:27 AM (3Z9LX)
5
The embedding of Apotex in Ontario Liberals goes further than Volpe. Elie Betito, the corporate director, was Bonnie Brown's (Lib,Oakville) campaign chair in the last election, until the infamous "take your gun-loving ass and go back to the States" comment that forced him to resign. While in the campaign position, he was using the corporate resources of Apotex to support the campaign (email networks, perhaps others). Al Rock was a counsel for Apotex before he decided he was a better accountant than a lawyer (the registry will only cost $2 million , really. Did I tell you that only those of us in power should have guns?). Not only should Volpe be looked at by the the Liberals, the entire Apotex/Liberal symbiosis should be looked at by the RCMP.
Posted by: Skip at June 01, 2006 05:01 AM (SoUzy)
6
I don't see the problem. By the time my children were all 11 years old they had each saved up $54.00 to give to the political candidate of their choice. I didn't tell them which one to choose!
Oops. I thought the $5400.00 was a typo. My bad!
Posted by: Paul at June 01, 2006 07:42 AM (nlevv)
7
As I recall, Apotex paid their staff to volunteer for Liberal candidates in the 1995 Ontario election.
Posted by: Joan Tintor at June 01, 2006 03:31 PM (L7sPk)
8
Another tip of the iceberg, sickening when you think about how LITTLE the public know of the truth , however, one day it will come forth then look out the people involved.
Ben H,for Pete`s sake get with it man.
What is needed in Ottawa is a modern day Guy Foulks with a remote control.
Posted by: Jack ( Lofty ) Waters at June 01, 2006 04:56 PM (YjzOE)
9
I like it very much!sd5f46s5df465sd4f
Posted by: nike gs football at December 02, 2012 01:42 PM (pqsCR)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 30, 2006
The RCMP and the Liberals: Looks like Gomery was the right thing to do
Warren Kinsella has been consistent and vociferous in his position that the Gomery Inquiry into the Sponsorship Scandal was a waste. The RCMP could have handled the file and should have handled it, he maintains.
Of course, Kinsella's criticisms are not just about the RCMP being frozen out, but also about Justice Gomery's qualifications and his impartiality, or lack thereof.
But putting aside the particulars about Gomery, it looks like somebody other than the RCMP should have been given the task of investigating the Liberals after all:
The retired civilian watchdog over the RCMP says the Martin government "didn't want any waves" and tried to "shut her up" by offering to continue her salary if she stepped down early.
Shirley Heafey, the lawyer who chaired the RCMP Public Complaints Commission for eight years until last October, said she had a "dreadful" time due to what she called "direct interference" by the Martin government with her independent role.
The interference included being audited "to death" -- a clear misuse of the office of the auditor as a tool for punishing an independent watchdog. That's two strikes against the Martin government, if these allegations are true.
Too bad Anne McLellan lost her seat. She certainly has some explaining to do:
Ms. Heafey singled out what she saw as a lack of co-operation and support by then-deputy prime minister Anne McLellan, who as minister of public safety was responsible for the RCMP.
"She was very, very supportive of the RCMP and she didn't want any waves while the government was in a minority position, and I made waves whenever I had to," commented Ms. Heafey, who during her tenure criticized the RCMP for car chases that injured innocent bystanders and warned of looming disaster if Parliament fails to implement civilian oversight of the Mounties' burgeoning role in national security.
Interestingly, McLellan still has a spokesperson:
[Hilary] Geller, a spokeswoman for Ms. McLellan [and her former chief of staff], denied all of Ms. Heafey's allegations.
"Neither McLellan, myself or anybody in our office tried in any way to tell Shirley what she should or shouldn't do. And I think for her to speculate that Treasury Board audits were somehow Anne McLellan trying to interfere is simply baseless speculation. That's absolutely 100 per cent false."
Ms. Geller stated there was "absolutely not" any desire or attempt by Ms. McLellan or anyone else in the government to avert a public hearing into Kingsclear.
Much of the pressure was applied concerning a probe into a cover up of sexual abuse by an RCMP staff sergeant at the now-defunct Kingsclear youth training centre in New Brunswick.
But imagine if the RCMP had the Sponsorship file. How would that have played out? Would the RCMP have been as diligent in investigating a government that had been so supportive in helping the RCMP cover up their problems?
Indeed, if the RCMP was so tight with Martin, maybe the outcome of their investigation would have focused even more blame on Jean Chretien. As a way of currying favour, perhaps, or paying back a debt. Bears thinking about, especially by those who think Justice Gomery had it in for Jean Chretien.
This also casts the Ralph Goodale announcement in a new light. Recall that right in the middle of the election, a bombshell exploded in the Liberal campaign when the RCMP announced they were conducting a criminal investigation into whether Finance Minister Ralph Goodale or his office had been responsible for leaking the income trust taxation decision ahead of the announcement, allowing key investors to make a tidy profit.
Many people wondered why the RCMP had pulled the pin on that grenade instead of waiting three weeks until after the election. In retrospect, most agree that the Liberals never recovered from that announcement.
Could it be that the RCMP had come to the conclusion that they were too closely tied to a dying Martin government? Could it be that the RCMP decided that unless they made a bold move to separate themselves from the Liberal Party and the Paul Martin government in particular, they ran the risk of being pulled down with them, even if the Liberals limped into a victory in that election? Did the RCMP decide that they needed to make a gesture to the Conservatives in case Stephen Harper won, and the Goodale announcement was the ideal gesture to make?
Ironically, that gesture might have guaranteed a loss for the Liberals. In any case, if Heafey's allegations are true, then there needs to be a serious shake up at the top of the RCMP organization, and that's just a start.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
08:14 AM
| Comments (16)
| Add Comment
Post contains 793 words, total size 5 kb.
1
Strong arm of the law?
God bless Shirley Heafey. How many more are there like her? Likely many, but do they have the courage to speak out?
Anne McLellan, her rat pack, and other Liberal aiders and abetters, such as Zaccardelli, should feel shame. Sadly they don't/can't, they feel justified because they were doing it for the good of the Country.
Who's paying for Anne's spokesperson? If we're paying for her, I hope she's cheaper than a defense attorney. Soon enough we'll be paying that tab too.
Desperate dogs.
Posted by: Cheri at May 30, 2006 10:14 AM (RusDc)
2
You know, it is indeed sad how far down Canada and the RCMP has sunk into the slough of Despondency.
The RCMP was a once proud bastion of truth/justice and fair handling of people, no matter what religion, race, or creed.
The RC's have a tarnished leader. Talking to the local's I really feel sorry for them. Hard to "Maintain the Right" when your bosses in Ottawa "Steal from the Right", or have their fingers in AdScam or become Cretien's private SS squad.
Don't know when this all started the downward slide, I would suspect back in the 70's with the political correct politicians dictating how the force was to be run.
Under the guise of "equal opportunity employment"
I applied to the RC's back in '76/77 and was told by a Staff Sargeant 'not to bother'. Not a degrogatory way, but in a matter of fact way because I was a WASP. A White Anglo-Saxion Protestant.
They were (and guess still are, ironically) looking for visible minorities, as in Native, Asian, or Female to shore up their ranks.
Nothing wrong in that idea, but when it becomes a mandate and excludes strong healthy white males, then something is wrong with the picture.
Like firefighters, I'm all for 5'2" females joining as long as they can carry me (6'0/250LBS) out of a flaming building...and in time.
Agreed, there needs a wholesale cleanout of the RCMP management in Ottawa as the corruption of the Liberals has rubbed off on them.
Akin to you become like the company you keep.
Posted by: tomax7 at May 30, 2006 10:30 AM (jHhd0)
3
The RCMP have become politically hog tied. Zaccardelli has to go. Not only has he been compromised by the Liberals, he has dis-honored his rank and file members with the same perception. The force has been restrained by under-funding and under-staffing and to some degree they lack the motivation to act, due to the dysfunctional judiciary.
Our law and order, reform government has to fix this perception immediately. This sort of reform would have more significance than fixed election dates, ethics commissioners, lobbyist registries and whistle-blower protection combined.
Posted by: Cheri at May 30, 2006 01:05 PM (RusDc)
4
Personally I have high hopes for the Conservative government making some changes in law and order in this country. Despite what some people have to say, our Canadian police forces need support from the people not sour grapes (tomax7). Let them do their jobs and keep the politics out of it.
Posted by: Angry Canadian at May 30, 2006 01:54 PM (f7z9E)
5
You are distorting reality.
Martin did not direct the auditor general to audit the RCMP. Sheila Fraser sets her own agenda. You rob her of credibility if you say she is directed by the PMO.
Heafey is independent of the government it is lame that she now complains. Where the hell was she a year ago. She should have done her job.
The RCMP did have the sponsorship file...that is why Guite and Brault have gone to jail.
Sheesh. You should get your facts straight. Can't you be honest in your criticism? Does it need to be distorted? If you need to distort the truth is it because you have nothing substantive to complain about?
Posted by: Gritpatriot at May 30, 2006 03:32 PM (BX3iS)
6
We lived through almost 13 years of Liberal corruption, but it is only now that we are beginning to see the full extent of Liberal corruption and Liberals' total disregard for Canadians. I spit on them all. May they all burn in hell.
Posted by: Musings about This and That at May 30, 2006 04:03 PM (/V2m6)
7
All Liberals should burn in hell? That's almost 300,000 Canadians. That's the same as condemning all Conservatives as alcoholics because Klein is a hopeless pisstank. Or that all Conservatives don't keep their deals because of the screwing that Peter Mckay agve to David Orchard. Man, no takes sucha silly comment seriously. You should give your stupid head a shake.
Posted by: Gritpatriot at May 30, 2006 04:12 PM (BX3iS)
8
Here's another idea for you, maybe the RCMP dropped the bomb in the middle of the campaign to get rid of the Liberals. I will let you speculate why.
Posted by: Anonymous at May 30, 2006 05:05 PM (wcLZ+)
9
G.P. - While Klein is one 'drunk' that you point to in your lame analogy, I would highlight that nearly every high profile Liberal from the Chretien/Martin saga has been touched by allegations of corruption or wrongdoing. I'd say someone like 'musings' might have a little more leeway in his generalizations when, more and more, the problems with the Liberals are revealed to be systemic rather than isolated.
Posted by: Jeff at May 30, 2006 05:59 PM (1k2og)
10
By the way, whatever happened to the RCMP investigation of Mr. Goodale? Not that anyone in the Parliamentry Press Gallery seems to be curious.
Liberals investigating Liberals.
Posted by: john at May 30, 2006 06:53 PM (ZNAq7)
11
As someone who does not believe in co-incidences, does anyone else out there think it was an odd co-incidence that the RCMP waited until the Martin cabinet was out and the Harper cabinet not yet sworn in to lay charges in the 168 million HP computer fraud? You know, the scandal where Reg Alcock insisted that Paul Champagne acted alone and where there is still 81 million dollars unaccounted for according to the Ott Citizen... Just asking
Posted by: Joey at May 30, 2006 07:43 PM (xGdMV)
12
I hate to burst someone's bubble, but there are plenty of "hopeless pisstanks" in the Liberal party....oh yes, oh yes, there are....:-)
Posted by: weastener at May 30, 2006 09:03 PM (tyzJl)
13
Anne would have us believe that this is merely baseless speculation. Well, Anne, it is one thing to say that, and it is quite another thing for us to believe it. This is where Liberals such as this rotten cabal we just dismissed go off the rails: they believe in their heart of hearts that we are collectively so gullible as to render such denials worthy of the greenhouse gas emitted in their production.
Fortunately, we don't have to argue the point with her. Got the point now, Anne, standing over there on the sidelines?
Posted by: Shaken at May 30, 2006 11:03 PM (JyC7p)
14
Angry Canadian: "not sour grapes (tomax7)"
Ha!
Take off your rose coloured glasses pal. That feel-good-noble-head-in-sand saying of "need support from the people" doesn't help the forces either. If one can't point out a problem, then you're part of it.
Fish start to rot from the head down, and if the RCMP's management in Ottawa is too cozy to the Liberals...
Canada = Animal Farm. Where everyone is equal, but some are more equal.
BTW: I support our local police, used to do volunteer work with them.
Posted by: tomax7 at May 31, 2006 10:52 AM (jHhd0)
15
Anon: "maybe the RCMP dropped the bomb in the middle of the campaign"
A. Finally saw light at the end of the tunnel?
B. They wanted to cozy up to the new boss?
C. The Liberal chains were falling off?
D. There are honest cops in Ottawa?
E. All of the above?
Posted by: tomax7 at May 31, 2006 11:01 AM (jHhd0)
16
Gritpatriot,
Please get your facts straight. Brault and COFFIN have been sentenced to jail. To the best of my knowledge Guite hasn't even been convicted or exonerated yet, mush less sentenced.
And yes, the RCMP did have the Adscam file. Perhaps this is why, after such diligent investigation and so many players involved, there were only 3 people charged. Just sacrificial lambs to deflect attention from the bigger fish I think.
Gerry
Posted by: gerry at May 31, 2006 10:05 PM (e+lSi)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 29, 2006
The National Post vs the Globe and Mail
Every once in a while you encounter a story that lets you compare, side by side, the coverage Canadians get from these two major dailies.
more...
Posted by: Steve Janke at
04:04 PM
| Comments (23)
| Add Comment
Post contains 1030 words, total size 8 kb.
1
"Delegates...voted overwhelmingly Saturday to support the campaign until Israel recognizes the Palestinian right to self-determination."
That must be a fact,isn't it? That's why it's so dangerous to have outlets, even as seemingly bland as the Post, offering opinions that differ from the mainstream. Let's hope the Human Rights Commissions are monitoring the situation.
Canada, as the Star noted today in an editorial, is a LIBERAL democracy, with everything that connotes.
Posted by: Drained Brain at May 29, 2006 09:36 PM (F5fB9)
2
I can't say that I agree with your politics (Janke), but you do make your point. Some more critical journalism would be nice to see in general. Thanks.
Posted by: CdnTarHeel at May 29, 2006 09:38 PM (lb8ja)
3
Democracy union style. On such an important issue why wasn't the whole 200,00 members balloted.
Stupid qustion it would not have passed.
Posted by: Pissedoff at May 29, 2006 10:13 PM (jxEbQ)
4
What the hell is a union doing voting on this issue anyway? Don't they have anything better to stick their nose in?
Posted by: confused at May 29, 2006 10:37 PM (O3lBl)
5
You'll notice I coloured one paragraph purple in the National Post piece. That's because when you feel the need to have to explicitly say that you are against suicide bombers, you already have a public relations problem on your hands.
Or you feel it necessary to preemptively counter the inevitable charge of anti-semitism, because CW equates criticism of the Jewish state's policies as criticism of Judaism and/or its adherents. That a representative of a religious/ethnic interest group is asked to respond to criticism of political policy builds on this. Take the Israeli/Palestinian angle out of this piece and you have a straight piece on a human rights statement.
Is Ryan's statement flawed for being reflexively defensive? Morgan implies the vote was held on Saturday to supress Jewish opinion, as if the union's reps decided to get up one morning and hold a spur of the moment vote without preamble or discussion, despite CUPE Ontario having been on this track for at least a couple of years (as Leong notes).
The job of journalists should be to report, not to criticize. That falls to pundits and spinsters. The 'fair and balanced'(tm) line conveniently obscures that journalistic media aren't supposed to be 'neutral', they're supposed to be
objective. Just the facts, ma'am.
Maybe, to a point, the Post piece reports the facts more completely (CUPE statement + CJC response), but why not commentary from Jewish CUPE members? Or in the interest of balance, a Canadian Jewish group or congregation critical of Israeli policy?
Posted by: Don at May 29, 2006 11:00 PM (K7KF4)
6
Yes those poor Palestinians they elected these terrorists. fFrom Yahoo news
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060530/ts_nm/mideast_dc
Top Hamas leader rejects Abbas referendum plan By Jalil Hamid
Mon May 29, 9:55 PM ET
PUTRAJAYA, Malaysia (Reuters) - Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud al-Zahar on Monday rejected as a waste of time and money a referendum President Mahmoud Abbas has threatened to call unless Hamas changes its policy toward Israel.
Zahar is a senior Hamas leader and his remarks were the Islamic militant group's clearest rejection yet of a referendum, underlining the widening rift between Abbas's Fatah faction and Hamas, the governing party since it won elections in January.
"Nobody will recognize Israel. There is no need for a referendum," Zahar, reiterating Hamas's long-held policy toward the Jewish state, told Reuters during a visit to Malaysia for a meeting of the Non-Aligned Movement.
"We are not afraid of a referendum but it's a waste of time and money," he said.
In violence in the Gaza Strip, four Palestinian militants were killed in a gunbattle with Israeli troops which was followed by a helicopter missile strike, as they attempted to launch makeshift rockets into Israel, witnesses said.
The militants were all members of Islamic Jihad, witnesses said. Six other civilians were also wounded in the incident.
The Israeli army confirmed details of the incident and said it was the first time troops had clashed with Palestinian militants while inside the Gaza Strip since withdrawing from the territory last August after 28 years of occupation.
The troops returned to their base in Israel after the clash ended, the army said.
NO CASH
The Hamas-led Palestinian Authority is cash-strapped because the United States and its allies have cut off aid to the body to pressure Hamas to renounce violence and recognize Israel. Hamas's charter calls for the destruction of the Jewish state.
On Thursday, Abbas set a 10-day deadline for Hamas to accept his proposal that the Palestinians agree to a peace settlement if Israel withdraws from all of the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem, occupied since the 1967 Middle East war.
Abbas said if Hamas refused to back the proposal he would call a referendum on it in July.
He opened talks in the West Bank city of Ramallah on Sunday with Hamas militants and other factions, trying to persuade them to accept the proposal.
But Hamas's official representative did not attend Monday's session, saying he was blocked by Israeli checkpoints. More meetings are expected throughout the week.
Hamas has scorned Abbas's peace proposal, which was drawn up by Palestinian leaders held in Israeli jails.
Abbas, a moderate, was elected by a landslide in early 2005 in a presidential ballot that Hamas did not contest.
The prisoners' plan, based on previous Arab peace initiatives, calls for a Palestinian state alongside Israel and for Israel to withdraw from all occupied territory.
A Fatah spokesman, Tawfiq Abu Khoussa, questioned why Hamas was so concerned about putting the proposal to a popular vote.
"They claim they have a majority in the streets behind their political agenda so why is there fear and panic about facing the referendum," Abu Khoussa said.
The peace proposal carries weight because the prisoners who drew it up, jailed for violence against Israelis, are regarded as heroes by many Palestinians.
Israel has not responded to the plan and has vowed to set its borders with Palestinian territory unilaterally unless peace talks can be resumed within months.
To solve the Palestinian Authority's financial problems resulting from the halt in aid and Israel's freezing of customs and tax revenues, Zahar proposed every Muslim in the world donate $1 "so we can raise $1.3 billion per year."
He said donations should be deposited in the Cairo-based Arab League's accounts and "we will find a way to bring the money to our people."
Many banks have so far refused to transfer funds to the Palestinian Authority because of intense U.S. pressure.
Posted by: Pissedoff at May 30, 2006 01:31 AM (jxEbQ)
7
You'll notice I coloured one paragraph purple in the National Post piece. That's because when you feel the need to have to explicitly say that you are against suicide bombers, you already have a public relations problem on your hands.
Well, well. If this hadn't been mentioned, you and others, Steve, would be shouting, "Hey, Sid, what about the suicide bombers? How one-sided can you get?" When he does include it, you make frankly asinine comments such as the one above.
Either way, Ryan and CUPE get it in the neck. Damned if they do, damned if they don't.
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 30, 2006 09:49 AM (Rn5Ph)
8
The Post's coverage on the middle east is vigoously pro-Israeli. The difference in reporting between the Post and the Gripe & Wail is not surprising.
Posted by: H K at May 30, 2006 11:00 AM (cJBY4)
9
Hey Dawg as the one above you, I will repeat what I have said about you on other blogs, you are a left wing lunatic lying wanker
Posted by: Pissedoff at May 30, 2006 11:38 AM (jxEbQ)
10
"Democracy union style. On such an important issue why wasn't the whole 200,00 members balloted.
Stupid qustion it would not have passed."
Just like the government oh supreme one.
You vote for them and they in turn pass policies (vote ,you know in the House of Commons) that effect you. Democracy government style. Get it?
I'm rooting for the underdogs in this whole mess..... the Palestinians.
Signed
Happy Canadian.
Posted by: at May 30, 2006 05:58 PM (Y8p0Z)
11
Happy Canadian, I'm rooting for the real underdogs... the ones that don't lob rockets into towns and bomb markets.
I'm in a union, but I'll be damned if I let my local or national tell me to boycott a democratic country. Last I looked, my union was there to protect my rights as an employee and to bargain on my behalf.
Posted by: Yukon Gold at May 30, 2006 06:38 PM (PaczZ)
12
I'm in a union - and have absolutely no idea what leads them to 'positions' they've taken on my behalf. Rarely do their positions seem directly related to our professional issues. They seem to think that we union-members cannot participate in democracy without their help. If they really wanted to represent 'our views' on every issue under the sun, they'd make sure to inform us and get us to vote on each particular issue, not just the 300 leftist hacks who show up to the policy setting gatherings. Better yet, stick to issues related to our profession, and trust us to get involved democratically for the others.
Posted by: Shane O. at May 30, 2006 11:12 PM (N6HS/)
13
Hey Dawg as the one above you, I will repeat what I have said about you on other blogs, you are a left wing lunatic lying wanker
I'm continually overwhelmed by the quality of Cons*rvative discourse. And this, folks, is about as typical as it gets. Watch this literate fellow--he'll have his own blog some day.
(Apparently the word "cons*rvative, minus the asterisk, is now banned at Angry's. Now
that's richly ironic, isn't it?)
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 30, 2006 11:17 PM (Rn5Ph)
14
Happy Canadian, I'm rooting for the real underdogs... the ones that don't lob rockets into towns and bomb markets.
Just to clarify: are those the ones that don't use IED's and $10000 RPG-7s or the one's that don't fire said rockets from Apaches and tanks?
Neither side walks with the angels. Throwing imflammatory accusations around does nicely obscure the fact that non-combatants on either side are being killed by militants (or their proxies) on the other.
Let's be clear here :
Sure...
Calling for the 'right of return' of Palestinians ONLY is an anti-semitic statement. CUPE called for it - CUPE is anti-semitic - i.e. racist.
Umm... where did it say CUPE supported right of return
only for Palestinians? Hey, you're not trying to cloud the discussion with inflammatory rhetoric, are you?
Nice use of numbers, by the way. So exactly where, in your opinion, is the threshold set before a 'people' can claim a home free from oppression? Not a state, a home. Palestine was never a state but neither was Israel pre-1948, so let's not start with that.
The use of Israeli occupations and annexations of Arab territory as an example? Also very neat, conveniently ignoring that people were living there before the declaration of statehood.
es, Israel as a state has a right to exist, free of oppression and persecution. Why not Palestine?
Neither side wants to acknowlege the other's rights. Neither side has any moral high-ground. Bomb calling and name throwing are only getting more people killed on both sides.
Posted by: Don at May 31, 2006 01:28 AM (K7KF4)
15
How does this effort spent on single-minded, blatantly left-wing posturing support the Sid/CUPE mandate of ensuring their membership receive the highest gold-plated wages, benefits & pensions conceivable whist providing far less usable work output compared to any of their private sector counterparts?
I reckon when you can't extort any more from the Canadian public, you must have time for other left-wing diversions.
mhb23re
(email is above username at google webmail service)
Posted by: MHB at May 31, 2006 11:57 AM (81qo5)
16
Perhaps some of you would be good enough to stop telling union members what they should or should not support, endorse or spend their money on. They elect the delegates who attend Convention on their behalf, and the latter are accountable, as is the union leadership. But not to you guys, who don't exactly carry a torch for the labour movement anyway.
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 31, 2006 12:46 PM (Rn5Ph)
17
Sure, Dawg:
Perhaps when the unions quit spending their members' annual dues on funding political parties, aims and agendas that aren't universally supported by said membership.
Or do you think every card-carrying CUPE or CAW or other union member votes exclusively NDP, holds a grudge against Israel, embraces Kyoto and despises the US?
mhb23re
(email is above username at google webmail service)
Posted by: MHB at May 31, 2006 01:53 PM (81qo5)
18
Unions, like corporations, can't donate to political parties--as you know.
I don't believe union members are unanimous on anything. But it's pretty safe to say that, by and large, delegates elected to go to Convention reflect the wider membership. It's a democratic process, and it's really up to the members to make the decisions, whether through a delegate system or otherwise--not up to a lot of anti-union Conservative partisans. Get me?
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 31, 2006 02:35 PM (Rn5Ph)
19
Unions, like corporations, can't donate to political parties--as you know.
Utterly and completely wrong.
The CAW has provided donations to the NDP for years, up until the Buzzard & Co. decided to pull the plug during the last federal election.
As for the union electoral process, I have about as much interest in whom they elect to represent them as a goat has in nuclear physics.
However, once the unions step out of the collective bargaining agreement and into the political arena, using mandated union dues to fund political choices having
nothing to do with their local business mandate, then I - and many of the other folks on this blog & elsewhere (the "Conservative partisans" you've so neatly labelled) tend to have issues. And I imagine there's plenty of union members who have the same issues.
Get me?
mhb23re
Posted by: MHB at May 31, 2006 04:22 PM (2/Us5)
20
So let's hear from the union members, then. Not you.
Meanwhile, look up BBill C-24 and get back to me.
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 31, 2006 05:06 PM (Rn5Ph)
21
Oh Dear. Sorry to fluster you by pointing out the obvious, Dawg.
Pre-2004, it was open season for unions to finance the party of the leadership's choice, and that was - is - wrong. Unless it becomes optional to withold union dues as a form of personal political protest, or the unions refund that portion used for political donations. Perhaps you'd understand things better if your union leadership decided to fund the Tories, rather than the socialists.
Post C24 - Chretien's abortion election "reform" designed to fill more money in Liberal coffers - is an even larger travesty of democracy. Now all taxpayers - not just union members - must finance all political parties of any ilk or stripe, and I for one find it mystifying why I'm required to fund Moustache Jack or the Bloc, where, given the choice, I'd chew off an arm rather than mark a ballot for either of the above.
Posted by: MHB at May 31, 2006 07:42 PM (2/Us5)
22
MHB:
Come on, do a little homework. Allocations to the political parties is proportionate to the votes they get. If 10% supports the Green Party, those taxpayers/voters could be seen as "Paying" the allocation to the Greens.
In any case, nice little two-step over C-24. You were wrong--come now, admit it.
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at June 01, 2006 08:23 AM (Rn5Ph)
23
A different conservative opinion
http://www.amconmag.com/2006/2006_06_05/buchanan.html
Posted by: Don at June 03, 2006 10:10 AM (K7KF4)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 28, 2006
The war at home
Canadian troops are fighting and dying in Afghanistan, in part to prevent the return of the Taliban, a minority who would impose their faith, in particular, an uncompromising brand of Islam, on an unwilling population.
Should it come as a surprise that the same fight is being fought at home?
By defiantly ending speeches with the words, "God bless Canada," [Prime Minister Stephen Harper] affirmed the sentiment expressed in our national anthem and on our coinage, and subtly but unmistakably held up a prominent middle finger to those who are trying to what might be called "atheize" the country.
They complained.
In one poll, 65% of Canadians told him to keep on doing it.
There is a battle being fought in this country against a minority who would impose their faith, in particular, an uncompromising brand of atheism, on an unwilling population.
Canadians generally are not uncomfortable about religious faith. Not deep down. But several decades of imposed atheism supported by the State (often under the guise of multiculturalism) has allowed a minority -- primarily liberal arts academia and their offspring, the media -- to cast Canada as a place where expressions of faith, especially Christian faith, is as welcome as public vomiting.
Here's an example of what they think of "God bless Canada!":
I hadn't realized until recently that Stephen Harper was using "God Bless Canada!" as a tagline for his speeches. Some may think this a harmless, or even beneficent, expression for a politician to use, but for those with knowledge of history, nothing could be a more frightening.
<snipped out all the requisite George W Bush comparisons>
Religion does not belong in public life, and Stephen Harper's efforts to drag it in says a great deal about him to those choosing to listen. This principle is as much a defense of freedom of religion as anything else: millions of Christians have been slain by other Christians over subtle differences of belief.
Religion in politics violates Canadians' traditional political civility. While God may be understood as a translation for Allah or Jehovah, the name is completely unsuitable for those embracing Buddhism or Hinduism or Humanism or no religion at all. This usage opens wounds where none need exist.
[emphasis added]
Got that? Religion is not to be seen, because it is the antithesis of civil behaviour. Note also that one problem is that Buddhists and Hindus would be offended. But then their offense would be a religious expression in of itself, would it not? Isn't being offended by someone's religious expression also a form of religious expression?
Well, Stephen Harper is one person who understands the absurdity of that position. And he won't kowtow to the absurd, no matter how many layers of postmodern bafflegab it gets wrapped up in.
But what is most interesting is that he has allies. A majority of the population who understand that suppressing religious expression is suppressing free speech. Indeed, it is probably the most precious form of free speech we enjoy -- the freedom to perceive the universe and our place in it as we see fit, and to not be embarrassed or persecuted for having and sharing that perception.
Will the forces of militant atheism ever understand that? Not likely, given that they'll never be able to separate the notion of free speech that I'm talking about from their visceral hatred of all things conservative:
"God Bless Canada" is a symbol of the coming realignment with US values. And it doesn't matter if a majority disagree with this shift. In the US, 30 per cent of the population are hard core believers who vote in large numbers and with the Republicans. No other group is so numerous and so united. While in Canada, this group is much smaller, they are getting a historic opportunity to govern as the Liberals and NDP split the shrinking center-left vote.
However, the new Conservatives aren't Tories, but smooth-talking serpents who have slithered out from underneath Prairie rocks to claim their new found dominion. Their wave has been a long time in coming, so we are finally seeing their breakthrough in this election with the United Right swamping the dying Liberal Party.
Ironically, the "smooth-talking serpent" analogy is one of the most ancient and powerful Judeo-Christian images of evil we have. I wonder of "ceti" realizes that he just offended a bunch of Buddhists and Hindus whose culture does not include the story of Genesis. Indeed the Hindus celebrate the Naga Panchami, the festival of snakes. The snake is seen as a symbol of immortality, not of duplicity and temptation.
No matter. The battle is being fought for freedom for Christians and Hindus both, and all people of faith, and it appears that the tide is turning. I expect the counterattacks to be vicious, even violent.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
11:47 AM
| Comments (42)
| Add Comment
Post contains 803 words, total size 5 kb.
1
I'm sick and tired of the certain inhabitants of this country taking away MY rights and freedoms to promote their own. Welcome to Canada, but park your beliefs at the shorelines. This is Canada and we are a Christian country. Don't like it? Please stay at home where you can practise your religion freely.
Posted by: Ken at May 28, 2006 12:20 PM (Ew5JR)
2
Ken, I would point out that I have no issue of people coming to this country (legally) and practising their religion. But Christians should be able to practise theirs. If we ask new immigrants anything, it is to understand that in this country all religions may be practised openly, which might not be the experience they had at home. Also, that religions are allowed to offend each other and be offended, and that the State will offer no special protection against offense for any chosen religion. If they can live under those rules, they are welcome.
Oh yes, and that historically, this country was always overwhelmingly Christian, and that historical reality is reflected in our statutory holidays, our coinage, our anthem, etc. Another thing they just need to accept (or at least not reject with violence).
I don't want people to be told that religion is something to be practised at home with the curtains drawn. To be told that religion is an embarrassment to be tolerated by those more enlightened, and that they are expected to become more enlightened, and if not them, their children. Unfortunately, that seems to be the case...until now.
Posted by: Steve Janke at May 28, 2006 12:36 PM (q65kp)
3
the whole issue would be laughable...
if it wasn't so insiduous
Posted by: Paul Hansen at May 28, 2006 12:59 PM (nlevv)
4
...some questions/remarks I once told a refugee who didn't like how things are done here ("we always did it this way").
1. Well, why don't you go back then?
2. Uh, how many wars have we had here?
3. Can I lift my hands to freely worship over there?
Posted by: tomax7 at May 28, 2006 02:49 PM (jHhd0)
5
Ken the first nations were the first peoples here and they were not Christians. As with all indigenous peoples in North and South America they were forcibly converted to Christianity by torture, war, brutality, etc. So get your facts straight. As for pronouncing one or more gods valid, well we live in a secular pluralistic society, without need to refer to diety. You can worship whatever diety you want, I will take my oaths by affirmation thank you.
Steve methinks thou protest too much when you claim you expect to be attacked violently....
Posted by: Eugene Plawiuk at May 28, 2006 03:07 PM (K0LvT)
6
The war for hearts and minds is coming home in the form of Al Jazeera.
Al Jazeera Network Extra Sharp Extra Clever
Josh Rushing is the new Washington anchor for the new Al Jazeera broadcast studio to come on stream soon.
Josh is an ex-marine corps captain. He was a spokesman for US government information services and decided to decline his commission.
His contacts with Al Jazeera caused him to form the impression they were trying to be an unbiased news reporting agency.
Josh says Al Jazeera ticks off both the East and the West and so can been seen as *impartial*.
He says that the network is actually four mini networks.
I found that to be interesting. Four mini networks, soon to be five. Decentralizing is a sure fire way to insure survival. No knocking out of *head office*.
Al Jazeera has been a powerful weapon to leverage the cartoon protest riots and to further other Jihadist moves.
If the powers behind Al Jazeera are pro-fundamentalist, and I have reason to believe they are, then this expansion into the west with Josh as Washington rep, is an ominous manouver.
Ominous because Josh is an extremely intelligent and assuring type. The type who can calmly explain why Hamas websites that encourage children to become martyrs by wearing a bomb vest to a shopping mall is really not so bad, and having *liberals* accept the logic.
I wonder if the oil rich backers have given Josh an offer he just can*t refuse?
A world recognized news reporting network is in fact a very effective weapon. This is how hundreds of millions of Muslims will be swayed and motivated on all continents eventually. TG
Posted by: TonyGuitar at May 28, 2006 03:19 PM (2GVBQ)
7
Pressed for time or I would have given a link or two. Check the Canadian Bucholic Corp.
An interview with Josh before noon. TG
Posted by: TonyGuitar at May 28, 2006 03:22 PM (2GVBQ)
8
The Rense link by Chapman is on drugs or worse
This is what`s in his web page key words - see below the line
Draw your own conclusions if he speaks for anyone else than dope smokers watching the Martians make crop circles
--------------------
MP3, 911, flying saucers, aliens, Tesla, UFOs, ufo, Harry Potter, spacecraft, mpeg, mp3, jpg, pix, freedom, liberty, justice, 911, pics, images, pokemon, dragon, ludacris, spears, christianity, search, search engine, ufo, ufos, health, mpeg, jpg, domains, alternative health, health products, wtc, free, mpeg terrorism, conspiracy, conspiracies, aliens, the end of
the line, jeff rense, talk radio, weapons, secret weapons, nwo, new
world order, aids, aids exposed, viruses, crop circles, tapes
Posted by: 54th BN on the Front lines at May 28, 2006 04:12 PM (gCtRI)
9
Steve,
Am I to conclude then, that you don't mind State sponsored religion, so long as it is Christianity?
When Stephen Harper speaks, it is as the top representative of the Government of Canada. His "God Bless Canada" cannot be seen as simply a statement of personal beliefs -- as head of the country, he speaks for the country. This, in no way, is preventing him from practicing his religious beliefs -- there is no dictate for Christians to end speeches with "God Bless our Nation."
I suppose my question is, if we had a Muslim Prime Minister, would you also support him ending his talks with "Allahu Akhbar, Allah bless Canada"? Or, if that isn't "historical" enough for you, would you mind if we had an Indigenous Canadian who was Prime Minister who started and ended each speech with a sweetgrass ceremony?
Posted by: Bob at May 28, 2006 04:16 PM (fnZDj)
10
Politicians like the NDP Socialists and Stalin supporters love to preach about separating religion for the State.
That of course, is only until they discover that the "Thou shalt not kill" moral value would have to be removed from our Courts as a base for Crminal sentencing in murder cases.
Ask any lawyer why Murder is illegal and then sit back and see if they trace it back to a Social value stemming from a personal faith.
Don't fall for the "Because it's wrong" PC answer that Liberals love to hide behind.
Posted by: at May 28, 2006 04:30 PM (2AT1A)
11
Politicians like the NDP Socialists and Stalin supporters love to preach about separating religion for the State. That of course, is only until they discover that the "Thou shalt not kill" moral value would have to be removed from our Courts as a base for Crminal sentencing in murder cases.
Right, because it is impossible to "moral values" that are non-religous. Give me a break.
Posted by: at May 28, 2006 04:42 PM (fnZDj)
12
To make it a bit more personal, if Edmonton Strathcona Conservative MP Rahim Jaffer (who is Muslim) were to become Prime Minister, would it be appropriate for him to end his Government of Canada speeches with "Allah Bless Canada"?
Some of your fellow conservatives seem to think not:
http://westernstandard.blogs.com/shotgun/2006/05/the_war_at_home.html
Of course, they also appear to think that he shouldn't be allowed to live in Canada, so it is tough to take them very seriously.
Posted by: Bob at May 28, 2006 05:44 PM (fnZDj)
13
The first line from the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
"Whereas Canada is founded upon principles that recognize the supremacy of God and the rule of law:"
I would think PM Harper has that right to say "God Bless" to whomever he wants...
Posted by: Xena at May 28, 2006 05:49 PM (gtT0g)
14
Let*s not confuse the supremacy of God with that of religion.
Religion is a man made club wherein a number of people agree on rules that permit a mutually supportive way of life.
God is one name among several that we use to refer to a supreme being or spiritual entity.
I believe in a supreme entity but no religion seems to be free of human bias.
The Bahai who meet Saturdays in each others homes seems fairly reasonable. They do have a temple somewhere in the Eastern states.
It*s a live and let live philosophy but it is still a human based club. TG
Posted by: TonyGuitar at May 28, 2006 06:22 PM (2GVBQ)
15
ThatÂ’s actually a good question about Rahim. The short answer is yes he can say whatever he wants as long as he shows tolerance towards others. But the incongruence here is that the jury is out as to the Muslim religionÂ’s tolerance towards other religions.
But the very question makes it clear that there is a flaw in the multi-culti relativism of the left. More on that later, but first Â…
My guess is that Rahim is a Muslim-atheist and he may or may not know that he is technically an atheist. Because atheists are essentially what Moderates are. ThatÂ’s the case because they havenÂ’t yet gone through their civil war or reformation, Muslims by definition donÂ’t believe in secularism nor in tolerance toward other religions nor in the equality of women. ThatÂ’s the scary thing; true Muslims want the Caliph to rule and rule not just Muslims, everyone.
IÂ’m sure Rahim, whom IÂ’ve met but donÂ’t know, is tolerant of other religions and believes in the equality of women. Therefore is he a Muslim? Or is he a Moderate-cultural-Muslim whoÂ’s really an atheist?
Even before the Reformation, Christianity had instilled secularism in its Testament “render unto Caesar that which is Caesar’s and unto God, that which is God’s”.
That significant distinction of Christianity is not acknowledged by the postmodernist relativism spewed out of our universities. However, history and tradition do have meaning and enable us to predict where “God bless Canada” might lead to; whereas “"Allahu Akhbar, Allah bless Canada,” predicts a very different direction on the tolerance that we’ve enjoyed since 1867.
But let’s get practical, Rahim isn’t going to say “"Allahu Akhbar, Allah bless Canada". Nor is an aboriginal going to have a sweetgrass ceremony after every speech because that takes a lot more than 3 seconds to perform. So these questions are just red herrings.
Besides, we all know that Jane Taber and Puffy would grill Rahim down the gauntlet as they would a First Nations candidate for PM. These candidates could never get by the tough questioning on secualarism and tolerance by these left-wing postmoderns relativists in the MSM (sarcasm off).
Posted by: nomdenet at May 28, 2006 07:16 PM (885Fa)
16
For Rahim to say Allah bless Canada would be the equivelent of PMSH saying Yahweh bless Canada not God bless Canada. God is a generic term for a higher usually spiritual being not a religious specific God. Allah is the Muslim God, Yahweh is the Jewish/Christian God Vishnu is one of the Hindu Gods.
Posted by: Joe at May 28, 2006 07:43 PM (ZF5aM)
17
Rahim Jaffer, it appears, is a member of the Ismaili branch of Islam. That is about as close to being “reformed” or liberated as you can get within the Muslim faith. I have acquaintances in that faith and they strike me as being very tolerant of other religion and women are equal as far as I can tell.
In fact one Ismaili mentioned to me that they felt a bit like the Jews once did , caught between a rock and hard place. This is because the more traditional Muslims frown on the liberated Ismailis and some people not knowing that Ismailis are liberated still treat them with the same suspicion as more extreme Muslims.
The Muslim religion really does need to undergo some revolutionary change, just as Judaeo-Christians did centuries ago.
Posted by: nomdenet at May 28, 2006 08:44 PM (885Fa)
18
My guess is that Rahim is a Muslim-atheist and he may or may not know that he is technically an atheist.
Maybe you should send him an email to let him know that he isn't really a Muslim -- since you apparently know more about his faith than he does himself [/sarcasm]. What arrogance.
Muslims by definition donÂ’t believe in secularism nor in tolerance toward other religions nor in the equality of women. ThatÂ’s the scary thing; true Muslims want the Caliph to rule and rule not just Muslims, everyone.
It's bad enough when Bin Laden the Taliban hijack Islam to promote an extreme version without non-muslims doing their best to help them along. There is no such thing as a "true Muslim". Like any other Religion, there is a broad spectrum of beliefs -- as you yourself admit in reference to Jaffer's Ismaili faith.
Posted by: Bob at May 28, 2006 09:09 PM (fnZDj)
19
Atheism isn't a left-wing position. Those leftists who condemn the Prime Minister for saying 'God Bless Canada' aren't doing it becuase they're rational atheists, they're doing it because they hate everything about the West and have an irrational xenophillia.
Christianity is a left-wing position. You can't be a faithful Catholic and an ardent capitalist. Afterall, this is your church:
"She [the Roman Catholic Church] has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of "capitalism," individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor"
source: http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c2a7.htm
And as for the injunction against murder, theft, rape et al. originating in the bible - all I can say to that is, those Jews must have been one rotten, theiving, murderous, idolatrous, pork-loving rabble before they got the ten commandments. Your god should have dropped those ten commandments on their heads if they were truly that shi#@y (as they must have been without HIS laws set out for them).
Getting back to the original point about the PM saying God Bless Canada - we live in a Christian country. Our consitution says that the country is founded on the rule of law and the supremacy of God - not 'a god' but 'God' - proper noun i.e. some guy's name and not a broad category that can include yahweh, vishnu, or allah. Saying the PM is violating 'Canadian values (TM)' is willfully ignorant.
Plus, where were all these so-called atheists of the left when the NDP was kicking out a candidate for practicing Wica? Where were they when the NDP demoted Svend Robinson for tabling a pro-atheist motion in parliament?
There's only one party in parliament that punishes members for their religion or lack of it - coincidentally the only party that was founded by a Christian preacher.
Posted by: Robert at May 29, 2006 12:53 AM (7xwFs)
20
I dispute that all or even a majority of atheists are left-wing. Where is the evidence--scattered comments from blogs. Please!
You have to distinguish between what atheists might decry as inappropriate under current law (which to some degree recognizes separation of Church and state, or at least nnon-preference among belief systems), and what atheists would like (and may argue for), the end of religions based on super-natrual beliefs. (Many atheists, such as Nietzsche, are all for religion as a system of hygienic rituals and practices.)
One also has to distinguish freedom to practice relgion and freedom of speech in public space, with separation of church and State. As some have noted, the "substitution" test is good guidance. Would be be appropriate for Harper to end his speeches, "We are responsible because there are no gods." Just freedom of speech; just Harper exercising his freedom to practice his belief rituals and affirmations. If hearing that offends you, then perhaps you should rethink the "God Bless Canada" ritual at the end of official government speeches.
It seems many of the attacks on Harper, though, are indeed left-wing and anti-Alberta rants. However, a right-wing Albertan can object to Harper's incantations a head of state without being fussed about right-or-left or Alberta issues.
Posted by: murray at May 29, 2006 05:49 AM (dw9A3)
21
As long as PMSH sticks to the principle of separation of church and state, I don't mind his "God bless Canada".
And, Steve, your statement
"I expect the counterattacks to be vicious, even violent"
is just ridiculous. Which atheist or true liberal can you name that plans anything like that?
Posted by: Johan i Kanada at May 29, 2006 06:09 AM (O5vJ4)
22
At last count, statscan showed that some 80% of Canadians claim to be Christian. Multiculturalism aside, that's just the way it is. Any attempt to say different is at least misrepresentation and more often outright Goebels style propoganda. Many atheists that I know are not militant and are not upset by others that believe in God, or for that matter Harper saying 'God bless Canada.' Past Liberal governments have lied about the true cultural makeup and beliefs of the majority of Canadians, and in doing so have given extra resolve to a radical type that want the Christian God expunged from public life.
History = Culture = Destiny.
A disconnection to our past is what radical 'progressives' are really after, to their own secular, if not Christian/Western hating ends.
'God bless Canada.' Three words are like hot coals on their heads. How very odd.
Posted by: Irwin Daisy at May 29, 2006 06:43 AM (MkblT)
23
Or perhaps you're talking about a violent counterattack by Christians?
(Very strange in that case, but, on the other hand, consider the rethoric of some Catholics in reaction to DVC.)
Posted by: Johan i Kanada at May 29, 2006 07:21 AM (O5vJ4)
24
Until we remove the line about the "supremacy of God", no public figure is out of bounds in invoking his or her deity's blessing under the generic term, rather than one specific to any particular faith, such as Jehovah, Allah, Jesus, etc. Until we change the Constitution, this is not a purely secular country.
Good luck mustering the votes for that change.
Posted by: Occam's Carbuncle at May 29, 2006 08:20 AM (fq0qh)
25
I'm trying to figure out how state silence on religion is supposed to be equivalent to state-enforced atheism. Your argument seems to require that. I have no problem with your view that people should be able to express content that involves religious beliefs, and I have no problem with public officials doing this. What I don't think is right is grounding that view on the treatment of the opposite policy as atheism. It isn't. It's silence. State atheism would enforce the denial of God, as the Soviet Union did. Canadian atheists who want enforced silence on the part of government officials (at least insofar as they are in their public role) does not amount to state-enfoced atheism.
Posted by: Jeremy Pierce at May 29, 2006 08:24 AM (Ihkjb)
26
"If religion has given birth to all that is essential in society, it is because the idea of society is the soul of religion." (Durkheim, 1912)
Somehow "Canada bless Canada" just wouldn't have the same ring to it. You go Harper.
Posted by: LynchMob at May 29, 2006 09:12 AM (eBLx0)
27
...you know, Christianity is the only faith that had their main figure die, rise again, and practice forgiveness? Then preaches have hope, faith, and love towards Himself and others the same.
Even more "silly" is how this faith is the only one a known Deity entrusts the full responsiblility of continuing His teachings unto a bunch of somewhat social outcasts for future generations.
Imagine, dedicate your whole life, soul, and body to teach love and forgiveness in a military and religious suppressed society. Have the very people who were suppose to be an example of God's love (religious leaders) drag you before the courts to have you condemned to death.
Heck have one of your best friends deny knowing you three times under pressure.
Think of the logic, would you trust the future of mankind to a bunch of rag tag misfits and other no names?
Talk about faith.
Christianity is the only faith (notice I don't say 'religion') to allow freedom of thought and not require rituals to follow it.
Believe or not belive, your choice.
cheers
tom
Posted by: tomax7 at May 29, 2006 09:15 AM (jHhd0)
28
Eugene,
Thanks for the lesson in blatant reductionism--and the post-colonial nonsense that permeates academia. European Christians built hospitals and schools, and provided other nations with technologies to enrich their lives. Yes, there was abuse, but First Nations people have also warred with eachother--and a major reason for their demise was due to their inability to handle disease (small pox etc). Their culture was stagnant; they were content to be at harmony with the earth, whereas the Judeo-Christian ethic is built upon the physicality of our relationship with the world--that we are to use it and harness its resources. I guess you would have preferred that the Europeans allow the Aztecs continue to cut out hearts, for example. How about technology and medicine? Do we not "destroy" the cultures by not giving them that either? Left wing hack jobs like yourself wouldn't know much about real history, except the revisionism and reductionism that passes as "scholarship."
Posted by: Richard Romano at May 29, 2006 09:27 AM (AxbcP)
29
I don't think the debate s advanced much by focussing on past atrocities or accomplishments. Plainly Judeo-Christian values have been a positive influence in many respect. The great technological advances, however, I would attribute more to science (against which the Church fought) and the industrial revolution lead, among other things, by the common law tradition in England that provided conditions necessary for capital growth and technological innovation at an accelerating pace.
The genius of Judeo-Christianity has been to transform itself time and time again, to become less harsh and doctrinaire. After burning Bruno at the stake (tongue gagged) as an example (he not only taught the world was not the centre of the universe, but that there were uncountably many suns), the Church relented and has more or less left science alone. Even the Vatican, now, is conceding the evidence for evolution is overwhelming, but leaving open the jump to homo sapien as an intervention from God.
The separation of Chruch and state should be seen as the latest step in the Church's self-reformation. I hasten to add that it is Judeo-Christianity capacity for self-reformation that mkaes it stand apart. Other religions do not have such a stellar track record.
Posted by: murray at May 29, 2006 09:48 AM (dw9A3)
30
The OLD rule:
Never discuss politics or religion!
The NEW rule:
Well Ok, dicuss away, but only via internet, well out of fists range.
Vive le Blogosphere. TG
Posted by: TonyGuitar at May 29, 2006 10:49 AM (2GVBQ)
31
TG how true, but at least the blogs allow people to engage the brain before opening their mouths...
Sometimes...
Posted by: tomax7 at May 29, 2006 11:21 AM (jHhd0)
32
Its time Conservatives, who are defending the God position, be honest with themselves. The nation of Canada, a member of the commonwealth, formerly a British colony, with a parliamentary style government, was founded by Christians who were raised and educated by Christians. Its time to honest with ouselves that we are Christians, whether we go to church or not, and we don't want to lose our way of life.
Yeah I know, you'll say I'm no better than the Jihadists.
Posted by: Matt at May 29, 2006 12:56 PM (68H83)
33
I think many liberals don't understand is that part of the freedom we enjoy (and the multi-culturalism they adore) is the freedom to believe. I am Jewish, and my faith is very important to me, just as I'm sure the Prime Minister's Christian faith is important to him. Let's not forget that those who built this country were also people of faith.
Tommy Douglas who was voted the Greatest Canadian was a baptist minister. Our Charter of Rights and national anthem both have references to G-d. So why is it that Stephen Harper can't ask the almighty to bless this great country?
I never understood why some Athiests believe they are so much smarter and are so condecending towards religious people. In fact the Athiests I have met are some of the most intolerant people I know.
Posted by: Andrew Smith at May 29, 2006 04:15 PM (HJXGQ)
34
Spirit Online: Buddhism: Is There a God? A Buddhist Perspective
Spirit Online: Buddhism: Is There a God? A Buddhist Perspective
By Rev Taitetsu Unno
IS THERE A GOD?
Yes, but a proper Buddhist answer requires some clarification. In the depth of human awareness is a supreme reality who is boundless in compassion and immeasurable in wisdom and who is involved in the endless activity to enlighten all existence.
Amida Buddha is this fullness of compassion, and his sole concern is the expression of unconditional love to every form of life.
Posted by: Russ at May 29, 2006 09:37 PM (H97uj)
35
Andrew Smith, I like what you say. Seems to make good sense to me .
I can never understand where Athiests get the stainless steel certainty that they base their atheism on.
TG
Posted by: TonyGuitar at May 30, 2006 12:20 AM (2GVBQ)
36
Athiests, simply put, are fools. Not stupid, or dumb as I respect many as they are quite educated and degreed and were my prof's, but they are simply blind fools.
Well that's what God calls them (Ps 14:1).
So I'm not going to argue with my imaginary Person, who I can't prove, see, or meet with for coffee so to speak. Guess in the Athiest's minds I'm the greater fool.
How true.
Talk about imagination, some Fella died for me, a guy He never met, saw, or could prove that I would exist 2000+ years later to clean my heart from all the bitterness and hurt I garnished over 21+ years.
And God is love.
Imagine that, like love, something you can't prove, see, or meet with.
How foolish love is then, and how true.
cheers
tom
Posted by: tomax7 at May 30, 2006 10:53 AM (jHhd0)
37
God or should that be the Gods in all their forms must have one hell of a laugh at us mere mortals. I wonder what the betting line is in God`s world today.
Posted by: at May 30, 2006 11:25 AM (pdf5D)
38
Not all athiests are fools or liberals. There are reluctant athiests who look around and can't believe a supreme being could exist capable of doing nothing more than observe the carnage. I also understand we are where we are because of organized religion and the resulting rule of law in western culture. Finally, when men the caliber of George F. Will and William F. Buckley maintain a passionate belief, one has to think long and hard about one's own lack of spirituality. At the end of the day, I enjoy "W" blessing the country as much as I enjoyed being blessed while attending a Catholic school. Who knows? There might be something to it.
Posted by: angryinthecornbelt at May 30, 2006 02:56 PM (0p4xh)
39
There seems to be some misunderstanding:
"I can never understand where Athiests get the stainless steel certainty that they base their atheism on."
Atheists are (for the most part) doubters and skeptics.
Religious people, on the other hand, have (for the most part) complete faith in the truth of their particular religion.
Or, as Russell once said "The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts."
Posted by: Johan i Kanada at May 31, 2006 08:30 AM (pJLZd)
40
An atheist has faith--just not faith in the existence of super-natural entities or an after-life (other than as food for worms). An atheist will presumably have degrees of confidence based on experience, but ultimately must act on faith. As to confidence in the non-existence of God (as described by religions), an atheist feels as confident about that as he feels confident that Santa Claus is not a real entity, except in the "Yes, Virginia..." sense. Sure, an atheist cannot "prove" there is no actual Santa Claus who lives forever and speeds around at midnight, but he can be confident enough that it is a wishful (but useful) fabrication to live as though it were not true.
As for Americans saying "God Bless America!"--the expression is hackneyed and but sentimental enough to perpetuate. Atheists, after all, say things like "Thank God I'm Atheist!" It's become part of the language.
Posted by: murray at May 31, 2006 11:28 AM (dw9A3)
41
You can*t possibly be an athiest. You would have to base that upon the absolute certainty of spiritual nothingness.
A depressing assumption and impossible to verify.
Thousands have seen UFOs. I was not one of them, yet I suspect it more likely that they exist rather than not.
No law against being an optimist. TG
Posted by: TonyGuitar at June 01, 2006 03:05 AM (2GVBQ)
42
I vehemently dislike 'God Bless Canada' as a tagline.
NOT because I disagree with referencing personal faith or a higher power. I don't.
NOT because I am personally not a Christian. I'm not, but that's ok.
NOT because it gives me creepy chills in observing yet another similarity between Harper and W. It does, but that's irrelevant.
I disagree because 'God Bless Canada' (as does God Bless America) implies that we are right, have the Lord on our side, and can therefore justify all manner of sins (bombings, invasions, manufacturing a culture of fear) in the name of some Greater Good to which we alone can lay claim.
It's a copout on the facts, a total misuse of the higher awareness/enlightenment/peace that connecting with God (whatever you call him/her/it) is supposed to bring, and it makes us look ridiculous and arrogant.
If he's looking to bring a blessing or invoke some kind of purer/higher form of thought and/or make a statement of his personal faith, how about 'God Bless us all'? 'God help us all to understand each other'? 'God, please teach us to dwell less on our differences'? 'God bless us and help us find peace'?
I personally would like nothing more than to see Harper ending his speeches with something that sounds a little more like a prayer, and a lot less like a battlecry.
Posted by: Ejdl at June 12, 2006 08:30 AM (U65Ux)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 25, 2006
But then you'd be blind...
From CTV:
Imagine an invisibility cloak that works just like the one Harry Potter inherited from his father.
Researchers in England and the United States think they know how to do that. They are laying out the blueprint and calling for help in developing the exotic materials needed to build a cloak.
The keys are special manmade materials, unlike any in nature or the Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. These materials are intended to steer light and other forms of electromagnetic radiation around an object, rendering it as invisible as something tucked into a hole in space.
I'll try to get some time to read the paper later, but for now, consider the fundamental problem with invisibility. Any system that makes you invisible immediately renders you blind. To see, light has to be absorbed by your retina. That's why the pupils of your eyes are black -- no light is coming back out. But in order to be invisible, light would either pass through you or around you, but either way, the retina would be cheated of the light it needs to function. If you arranged for the eyes to be exempt, you could see, but then everyone around you would see your eyes too, since they would be absorbing and reflecting light in the regular fashion.
A practical invisibility suit might include some sort of radar scanner or sonar that creates an image for the wearer of his surroundings using non-visible radiation or sound, respectively. Of course, you'd still be blind inasmuch as visible light was concerned, but once you were trained up on how to use the radar or sonar display, you might be able to move around, after a fashion.
But then strapping a radar system to a person, transmitter and receiver and power system and computers and displays, and then making the person and his radar invisible, is hardly something that would impress Professor McGonagall. Typical muggle nonsense, she would say.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
05:31 PM
| Comments (15)
| Add Comment
Post contains 336 words, total size 2 kb.
1
...invisible cloaks eh?...still awaiting Scotty to beam them up?
Here's a cheaper way, often done by well planned jewel thiefs. Take a picture of the corridor or room and paste it to the camera lens.
Or get a sandwich board size picture of stuff behind you...ooooooOOOOh wait, put a 6' LCD screen in front of you and a web cam attached to your butt...
Hopefully lens facing outward, might get a bit embarrasing tho...
Posted by: tomax7 at May 25, 2006 05:38 PM (jHhd0)
2
It's a cheap joke, but I thought it was pretty funny, so I thought I'd share (plus, it'll probably make some readers' temperature rise, which is always fun!).
Apparently, according to another blog I was reading the cloak already has an enthusiastic customer waiting eagerly for their first shipment.
The Harper cabinet.
Posted by: Lord Kitchener's Own at May 25, 2006 07:09 PM (m4pzx)
3
Um... "That's why the pupils of your eyes are black -- no light is coming back out."
Sheesh.
The pupils of your eyes aren't anything but apertures through which light passes. They're not "black". They're clear, i.e. transparent. That's why they appear red in flash photographs -- because the intense short-term light of the flash has actually illuminated all the blood vessels on the inside back portion of your eyeball. That's why they look milky in people with cataracts -- because the condition is a "clouding" of the eye's crystalline lens, which sits behind the pupil.
Your pupil isn't black. It only appears black because, in the vast majority of conditions under which people face each other, the insides of their eyeballs aren't lit up. Your statement is the same thing as saying "That's why the air in your bedroom at night is black."
Try again.
Posted by: quasi-not-real-modo at May 26, 2006 09:24 AM (oQmui)
4
...the light in my bedroom is orange because we got a streetlight outside nearby...
;-)
But true on the pupils.
Posted by: tomax7 at May 26, 2006 09:59 AM (jHhd0)
5
The whole "how can you see if you're invisible" problem is trivial, and easily solved if you have the technology to become invisible in the first place. The key is to remember that "invisible" does not mean "transparent" but rather "not able to be seen." There are many things that cannot be seen, not because they are transparent, but because they are small.
Imagine a sheet of this super invisible material. Imagine a pinprick in it. Imagine, behind the pinprick, a system of lenses for magnifying and focussing the light coming through.
Can you see a pinprick? Yes, if you're close enough and know where to look. But if you don't know it's there, you'll never spot it by accident.
Posted by: 2dave at May 26, 2006 11:03 AM (mB8jr)
6
The actual device would be more like a shield than a cloak that one could wear. It's proposed application is for ships, tanks, aircraft etc.
Don't expect to be wearing it anytime soon.
Posted by: Cardstonkid at May 26, 2006 12:26 PM (kvZ4g)
7
Why not an invisibility cloak that's selective? For example, it might let in (and hence, out) a narrow and fluctuating band of ultra-high-frequency EMR. If the Federation doesn't know the code, it might never find the right wavelength except for a nano-second or so. Hi-tech hide and seek. Meanwhile the Romulans are sending out EMR in this manner and reading the echoes. Game over for the USS Enterprise.
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 26, 2006 01:35 PM (Rn5Ph)
8
it seems y'all have way too much time on your hands.
BTW, I never would have pegged dawg for a trekkie!
Posted by: kelly at May 26, 2006 09:12 PM (/IrGj)
9
nano nano...
Oh wait, wrong show.
You know about Klingons floating around Uranus eh?
Posted by: tomax7 at May 27, 2006 08:06 AM (jHhd0)
10
Yeah, well, we all have our secret lives, kelly.
Live well and prosper.
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 27, 2006 08:42 AM (Rn5Ph)
11
Invisibility cloak? Nope, sorry, I don't see that at all.
Posted by: steve d. at May 27, 2006 10:57 PM (sw5R/)
12
To continue with Angry's theme, the logical approach to becoming invisible is to make the other person blind. If I cut your eyeballs out, you're damned right you won't be able to see me.
Just a pleasant early-morning thought.
Posted by: Ade at May 28, 2006 03:54 AM (4p91Z)
13
...but Ade, we could get one of those neat sunglassy type thingies what-his-name work on Spaz Tek, err Star Trek.
Although he said in an interview he hated them, hurt his temples...
*sigh*
Posted by: tomax7 at May 28, 2006 02:52 PM (jHhd0)
14
...what I really like to know is how'd they packaged all them invisible bike's in that Fed-Ex commerical.
And how do you know you got the right colour?
Posted by: tomax7 at May 28, 2006 02:53 PM (jHhd0)
15
so you place a small sensor through the cloak.. problem solved.
Posted by: winston smith at May 29, 2006 09:57 AM (N1BDW)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Understanding the job of the Ethics Commissioner
A politician is judged by the electorate.
Seems like a simple enough concept, doesn't it? You make promises, you try to implement them, you show the results, the voters decide.
Short of committing a criminal act, that is the only judgment a politician need submit to.
So what good is an Ethics Commissioner? He is not a judge, at least not in the sense of handing out punishments. His role is to ensure that elected officials and their staff understand the rules for ethical behaviour (a concept that focuses almost entirely on private financial interests versus the public trust, according to the code), most importantly where conflicts of interest arise. It's a bit sad that we have to have someone explain those concepts, but an argument can be made that having one person provide a consistent interpretation (as long as it is a good one) is better than hundreds of different interpretations.
But even if someone is caught in a conflict of interest, the Commissioner can only recommend appropriate "sanctions", which aren't defined. Presumably such sanctions would be limited to requiring an MP to divest himself of a certain financial interest found to be causing a conflict of interest.
Even the implementation of those recommended sanctions is left up to the government, where a political decision is made concerning those sanctions.
But some people don't get it. They think the Ethics Commissioner is some sort of watchdog whose job it is to compel politicians to implement a particular policy or piece of legislation:
The lobby group Democracy Watch has launched a formal complaint with the federal Ethics Commissioner accusing the Conservative government of breaking election promises.
The same letter of complaint also repeats Democracy Watch's call for ethics commissioner Bernard Shapiro to resign for failing to vigorously enforce ethics rules.
Duff Conacher of Democracy Watch said Thursday that Bill C-2 - the federal Accountability Act - breaks or omits 13 specific promises made by Prime Minister Stephen Harper in the run-up to the Jan. 23 vote.
Breaking a promise is not an ethical lapse in the sense defined in the code. It is an ethical problem if the promise was broken because of a financial conflict that had not been disclosed. But it's the financial conflict, and not the promise, that is the concern of the Ethics Commissioner.
How to keep promises, in what order, and which to forgo altogether, are political decisions. Sometimes they are made for reasons of crass political expediency, and sometimes for very obvious pragmatic reasons. Sometimes it becomes clear that the promise was just dumb. Sometimes the promise is kept, but had to be modified in some manner, and people mistakenly think that the promise was not kept.
At the end of the day, though, these are issues of politics, not ethics, at least not in the sense defined by the code. The judgment lies with the voters, not with the Ethics Commissioner. Duff Conacher is way off base by trying to pull the Ethics Commissioner into this.
Oh, and by the way, he is also wasting his time. The Ethics Commissioner only responds to complaints from MPs, not from the public (see 72.08 of the enabling statute). I think Conacher knows this. I think he knows his "complaint" will go into the shredder. I think, though, he is doing this to get press attention. The funny thing is, he has a venue in which to make his concerns known. After second reading, the committee reviewing the bill will accept submissions from the public on how to improve the bill. It's part of how our democracy works. If he knows that his complaint is a waste of time, then Conacher is being a lot more cynical and a fair bit more duplicitous than I would have thought a member of Democracy Watch ought to be.
A final thought. Let's say, for the sake of argument, that the scope of the Ethics Commissioner's mandate included evaluating proposed legislation and making decisions concerning how well that legislation conformed to prior statements made outside of the House of Commons (which statements? how far back in time? by whom? -- leave the practicalities out of this for the moment) that have been deemed to be "promises". Let's say also that the Ethics Commissioner could impose sanctions on legislators who have proposed legislation determined to be flawed by the Commissioner in order to prod for changes in the legislation. And let's also say that this one-man unelected pseudo-legislative-branch called the Ethics Commissioner could be set on the track of bad legislation not by an elected member of parliament but by a private citizen, elected by no one, representing only himself when he complains that he doesn't like the proposed bill. Doesn't that sound like something that undermines democracy? Doesn't that sound a process Democracy Watch would be very concerned about?
Posted by: Steve Janke at
12:37 PM
| Comments (8)
| Add Comment
Post contains 824 words, total size 5 kb.
1
I've written to Democracy Watch a couple of times within the last couple years under the impression that the name implied they may be concerned about instances of non-democratic behaviour in Canada.
The first incident was after the Alberta Municipal elections regarding the Ward 10 fiasco in Calgary. I was told that sadly they only deal with Federal issues and was passed on some other contacts. OK fine.
The last incident was after Justice Gommery indicated his 2nd report would be regrettably delayed even though Warren Kinsella reported on his blog the same day that the "tender call" for printing those reports was released the same day with no changes to the deadline for the second report.
After a few months Democracy Watch finally responded that he would file a complaint with the ethics commissioner. Never heard from him again. Did get some messages though that D.W. is a non-profit organization reliant on public donations.
Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2006 01:43 PM (RusDc)
2
The Office of the Ethics Commissioner was created by the LIberals to deflect criticism for their own behaviour.
It certainly does not exist to influence or even comment on policy. That being said it reflects on the character and level of maturity/ intelligence of those at DW when they come up with screwball ideas like that.
Obviously DW is an association of Cranks without a clue.
Posted by: PGP at May 25, 2006 04:48 PM (iv01O)
3
The so-called ethics commissioner has been engaging in unethical behavior from the get-go. His mis-use of his office has encouraged the ethically-challenged grits to chase bogus claims that are beyond Shapiro's mandate. His rulings are inconsistent and totally lacking clarity and any degree of professionalism. One has to think that Cretin deliberately put a crony/incompetent in the role to deliberately sabotage the office of ethics commissioner. The sooner he is gone the better it will be for the democratic process.
Posted by: James at May 25, 2006 09:57 PM (9h10K)
4
My concern is not about the quality of the Ethics Commissioner. Even if we had a perfect EC, the complaint would still be inappropriate.
Posted by: Steve Janke at May 25, 2006 10:40 PM (Frxei)
5
I'm thinking, and I stand to be corrected, that D.W. doesn't do much unless there's money involved or it jives with their personal beefs.
Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2006 10:49 PM (RusDc)
6
There's one thing which gets D.W. dancing fast- an opportunity for Duff to get his voice heard.
Posted by: Mac at May 25, 2006 11:17 PM (TaDbz)
7
With that kind of thinking Canada would be subjected to a never ending election cycle.Minority governments can not pass all the Bills/promises they make but would be forced to try likely resulting in defeat of the gov and another election
Posted by: ian at May 26, 2006 12:17 PM (KqGpk)
8
Cheri,
Thank heaven for your insights regarding Democracy Watch.
My findings were similar. I want to support their ideals, however, there seems to be a total focus on fundraising dinners and meetings and not much focus on projects.
Not much FOCUS at all, in fact. I didn't say much before, because don't want to be sour on a possible good group.. but I have my doubts.
The major banks are SILENT...but you should know this..
For the interest of your readers data safety. Wait till the new smart cards cards come into use before on line card - buying.
Until Smart Cards come into use in North America, as they are in Europe, Credit Card dealings are not fully secure on the web!
E-Commerce in Crisis: When SSL Isn't Safe
================================
http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=12100DICXAH7
May 25, 2006 11:31AM 
*It's not a problem of authentication but one of transactional authorization,* says Bruce Schneier, leading security expert and CTO of Counterpane Internet Security. *No matter how hard you make the initial authentication for the end-user or hacker, the malware can just wait until the authentication is done and then manipulate the transaction.*
Robbing a brick-and-mortar bank seems like petty theft compared with a new breed of cybercrime that, according to a growing number of security
experts, is siphoning untold millions of dollars from banks and their customers using SSL-evading
Trojans and ever more refined phishing techniques.
Yet as phishing gets slicker, users are getting smarter. As the average Joe becomes less likely to type in authentication information in response to an e-mail, more and more cybercriminals are turning to SSL-evading Trojans.
These Trojans install themselves on unsuspecting users' PCs and either capture user log-on credentials or manipulate transactions after a successful log-on.
In both cases, the SSL connection between PC and bank remains intact. The user may think the confidential online transaction is protected against mischief -- but it is not. (continued...) TG [Now you must argue the pros... not just this foggy dude.]
http://www.sci-tech-today.com/story.xhtml?story_id=12100DICXAH7
Posted by: TonyGuitar at May 26, 2006 01:46 PM (2GVBQ)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Madonna's dishonesty
Madonna manages to keep in the news, which is quite the accomplishment for a popstar of her age.
more...
Posted by: Steve Janke at
11:17 AM
| Comments (12)
| Add Comment
Post contains 981 words, total size 6 kb.
1
Madonna Who? (YAWN!)
The best antidote for perpetual adolescent pseudo-stars sans talent is ignoring them.
Posted by: Dave at May 25, 2006 11:42 AM (PE/Va)
2
Kind critics say that she is 're-inventing' herself once again.
BS....she has always used gimmicks because her talent as a singer/dancer are minimal. Her dance instructor - Martha Graham - used to wonder what the hell she was doing in her dance classes.
Take away all of the background singers, and musicians, and let's hear Madonna a cappella.
Last note...I wonder what Jesus would think if she donated most of her own cash to buying AIDS drugs for patients??
Posted by: anonymous at May 25, 2006 11:52 AM (tyzJl)
3
"a popstar of her age." ????
August 1958. She's... what, 47?
Go do something rude to yourself you ageist twit. Then, when you're done, take a look at the top ten list of who's ruling the pop world these days.
Idiot.
Posted by: pottedplant at May 25, 2006 12:25 PM (FAa2V)
4
Hi Steve,
Agree as I do with your basic thesis, in the name of fairness I do have to point out a couple of things:
1) "Madonna" is her actual given name as bestowed by her parents, not an assumed persona. So it's a little unfair to accuse her very name of being an insult. (The way she has
capitalized on it may be another story, but even there, expecting an entertainment figure not to capitalize on unusual names in
any way is unreasonable -- what should she have done? Changed her honest-to-God birth name to avoid potential offense? Tried to make good Christian music, and have her name be assumed
again to be a cheap hook for audiences?)
2) Your financial calculations are likely to be a bit off -- it should be remembered that the $1200+ tickets are so valuable precisely because the seat space is limited. Remember also that some of that is going to be undercut by scalpers, block purchases and promotional giveaway contests. And the expense of logistics, salaries and transport for a show of this size (check out the budget for
The Lord of The Rings: The Musical for some idea of what these shows can cost to mount, and that's for something staying in the same place) is not inconsiderable either. And finally, we have no knowledge of what Madonna does or does not choose to donate out of her own profits to the causes she's championing. It may well be nothing -- but it might be considerably more than that.
I like most of Madonna's music, though I wouldn't count myself fan enough to pay these ticket prices, and I don't think much of many of her personal life choices or publicity gambits. But in a world where ridiculous numbers are believing
The Da Vinci Code, I think we've got better targets to be upset about.
Posted by: Stephen J. at May 25, 2006 02:10 PM (+7vgB)
5
Hi Stephen J,
On point (1), you are correct. My mistake, and I've corrected the post accordingly.
On point (2), I was not trying to do a detailed analysis, but to provide a sense of scope to the money changing hands here. These aren't forty dollar tickets. I'm not saying the price isn't a fair value for the product, but the cost would make it difficult for the average Canadian attending the concert to have much left over for donating to any charity.
She might donate vast amounts of money to charity -- but the point is she is putting on an offensive spectacle and justifying it by saying it is to inspire audience members who have just coughed up a large chunk of change for the ticket to give even more money to charity. If she wants to generate donations, lower the ticket price. That might mean putting on a less dramatic show driven by the artistic quality of her music and not by cheap theatrics and juvenile insults.
Posted by: Steve Janke at May 25, 2006 02:22 PM (Frxei)
6
Ahh!! Caught in a lie again eh? Steve Janke?
Posted by: Citizen of the Great White North at May 25, 2006 03:02 PM (X6p7A)
7
If she wants to generate donations, lower the ticket price. That might mean putting on a less dramatic show driven by the artistic quality of her music and not by cheap theatrics and juvenile insults.
This kind of zero-sum economic thinking is unusual for a professed fiscal conservative. Plus, I seriously doubt that the average ticket price is $1200. And it is ridiculous to say that she will make $100,000,000 personally by the end of the tour. Those are just ridiculous numbers. Did you just forget about all of the people employed by these shows who need salaries? Facility costs?
It is also ironic that you grill her for presuming to know what Jesus would think, while presuming, yourself, to know Madonna's motivations. In fact, you claim to know her motivations better than she herself does (
"But she won't be honest with us about the reasons. I suspect she isn't even honest to herself about the reasons.")
What does that even mean? She might
think that she is trying to raise awareness of AIDS in Africa, but she doesn't
really think that? Come on.
She does, afterall, donate the best 50 seats of every US show to the Kabala Centre which they then auction off as a fund-raiser. She did donate the proceeds of an entire concert to
US orphans of terrorist attacks. She donates
all of the profits from her children's books to the Spirituality for Kids Foundation.
Is it
ever possible for an entertainer to attempt to bring awareness to an issue at a concert without it being construed as "trying to sell tickets?" I'm not being facetious with that question: is it possible? And is it better or worse than televangelists who ask for money in the name of the Lord and use it to their own mansions. At least with entertainers they aren't claiming that the ticket prices are for anything other than the show.
Now, having said all that, I think you are right that it was a pretty lame stunt. I think her motivations are honest, but it is just poorly conceived and shows a lack of judgement about how to best get the message across.
Posted by: bob at May 25, 2006 04:45 PM (fnZDj)
8
You're way off with your ticket prices for a concert in montreal. If you look at the top of the website that you provide for the ticket prices, it states:
Please Note: Madonna tickets may be sold for more than the price listed on the ticket. Unless specifically stated, we are not affiliated with the official Madonna website, the Madonna box office or any Madonna fan clubs, partners, or sponsors.
That is, these tickets seem to be being scalped over the Internet. The actual tickets, which you can purchase (well, could purchase...the show is sold out now) at admisson.com, range from $55 to $350. The average ticket price is about $150, more than a factor of ten less than the average price you suggest.
You were too conservative with the number of seats, since the Bell Centre holds a bit less than 22,000 people for a hockey game. A bit more than 2000 people can sit in the arena area for a concert, so the total number is about 24,000.
24,000 * $150 is about 3.5 million dollars. Certainly not chump change, but not nearly the number you suggest either.
Posted by: Alex at May 25, 2006 07:03 PM (/YRUr)
9
Madonna is, and always has been, a publicity seeker. To think that isn't her primary motive with this show is naive, I think.
Posted by: ian in cowtown at May 25, 2006 07:13 PM (fobbb)
10
Madonna is a nasty, selfish, ignorant person who also happens to be stinking rich - so of course the media will hang off her every word regardless of its stupidity.
Posted by: infidel at May 25, 2006 11:21 PM (7pBiD)
11
Fortunately everything posted here, whether by rich or poor, is all very intelligent and intelligeble.
Right.
Posted by: Johan i Kanada at May 26, 2006 12:18 PM (whNcF)
12
Seriously who cares?
Let Madonna & Kaballa, Christianity & Pat Boone, Islam & Cat Stevens, Tom Cruise & Scientology all go to a place where the heat is high and the pitch forks are a plenty.
Enough already.... anyone for some rational thoughts instead of stories of myths, fairytales and frauds?
Posted by: Cardstonkid at May 26, 2006 04:00 PM (kvZ4g)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 24, 2006
Not again!
You'd think that after the David Emerson thing, the Conservatives would have learned.
But no.
Here they are, treating another MP who is not a member of the caucus with respect, offering him a role with responsibility, being inclusive instead of exclusive.
It's that sort of dirty and underhanded political scheming that prompted David Emerson to bolt from his proper place among the Liberals, paragons of political virtue that they are.
This time, it is independent Quebec MP Andre Arthur in the sights:
Rookie Quebec Independent MP Andre Arthur, a former shock radio jock, is not ruling out the possibility of joining the federal Conservatives in this Parliament.
A controversial former radio personality whom the governing Tories put on the Commons Industry, Science and Technology Committee recently, Mr. Arthur said that he has not been approached by anyone from the Conservative Party, either formally or informally, to join their party.
"The only thing that I've been approached with is an extraordinary treatment. They gave an Independent a seat on a major Parliamentary Committee--Industry, Science and Technology and that is something that I have to measure, in terms of respect and seduction," he said.
"I think it was Jay Hill [who said in answering a reporter's question] that do you expect Arthur to vote with you all the time and he answered, 'Not all the time but once in a while would be fun.' It's quite evident that for me, this is a hand that's stretched in my direction, I shook it, I appreciate what they did."
That "hand" hides a sinister motive:
[Chief Government Whip Jay Hill ] added that the unusual step of putting Mr. Arthur on the Commons Industry committee has nothing to do with the possibility of enticing him to join the Conservative caucus. Rather, he said that the Prime Minister wants to empower each and every MP so that he or she could play a productive and constructive role in the Parliament.
It's enough to make my blood boil! How are we to have true electoral reform in this country with all these empowered and respected MPs gumming up the works, not doing as they are told by party leaders and spin doctors. Bev Dejarlais, the NDP MP for Churchill, was severely punished by Jack Layton for voting her conscience and according to the wishes of her constituents. No longer an MP, she now works for the Conservatives. Keep this up, and we'll have MPs from all three opposition parties wondering if they might not be happier working for an organization that values their thoughts, and not just their votes.
Imagine how much trouble the Conservatives will be in if that happens.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
10:07 PM
| Comments (18)
| Add Comment
Post contains 437 words, total size 3 kb.
1
The sarcasm is delicious!
Well said, Steve! I'll bet more than a few opposition MP's can't get their heads around this new trend of
real parliamentary democracy. Imagine! The nerve of those Conservatives!
Posted by: Dante at May 24, 2006 11:17 PM (r63g0)
2
Just think no by election. This guy is an independent already, so if he decides to jump he has already fullfilled the village idiots party condition.
Posted by: Pissedoff at May 24, 2006 11:27 PM (MBc0V)
3
The guy is practically a conservative anyway. He will not have contort himself like many other floorcrossers to fit in. Had the Conservatives looked like they stood a chance prior to the last election, he might have even run for them.
I think Arthur would make an excellent addition to the Conservative caucus.
Posted by: Steve at May 24, 2006 11:31 PM (aAb0z)
4
What eh? another "fair weather" friend? You're welcome to him.
Funny to hear a conservative say floor-crossers like Emerson had to 'contort themselves to fit in.' A far cry from the reasons given after the swearing in ceremony.
Best you follow Harper's lead, shut up until you are spoken to, asked for the requisite response, or have your PM-approved notes in front of you.
Jaysus, you'll just keep embarassing Harper if you keep on like this!
Posted by: No Worries at May 25, 2006 12:02 AM (nnihx)
5
Did I hear correctly? Is the former NDP rep Bev working for the Conservative Party? If so, under what capacity? I am not sure that she would have beat Tina Keeper, but the NDP did not do itself any favours by tossing her. They are going to have the same reputation as the Democrats on these social issues and ultimately the same challenges.
Posted by: DarrenL at May 25, 2006 02:16 AM (323x7)
6
DarrenL: Bev Dejarlais is working for Greg Thompson, the Minister of Veterans Affairs, M.P., New Brunswick Southwest.
Posted by: DJeffery at May 25, 2006 03:18 AM (gjiFt)
7
DarrenL: Bev Desjarlais is working for Greg Thompson, the Minister of Veterans Affairs, M.P., New Brunswick Southwest.
Posted by: DJeffery at May 25, 2006 03:27 AM (gjiFt)
8
"Meanwhile, Conservative sources told The Hill Times that there have been some informal contacts between a handful of Bloc MPs and Quebec Conservatives about the possibility of crossing the floor as well."
Now that would be interesting...
Posted by: Jon at May 25, 2006 06:36 AM (+FQCe)
9
Oh, the horror of it all. Inclusive government.
I always thought Mulroney was smart to appoint Stephen Lewis as ambassador to the UN. Got him pretty much out of the country and gave Mulroney a touch of class. Mind you we inflicted Lewis on the rest of the world.
enough
Posted by: at May 25, 2006 08:40 AM (ucHAZ)
10
All part of the hidden agenda to destroy Canada by providing good government. It's scary to see Stephen Harper showing leadership and common sense as PM, I long for the days when Paul Martin would flap his arms and tell me what to think and the media would hide all the frightnening realities of the world from me.
Posted by: Virgil at May 25, 2006 09:02 AM (whUXu)
11
Steve, please don't try to pretend that Harper is operating out of principle here. He's not. You know it and I know it.
Principle is for politicians in opposition, sadly.
Aaron
Posted by: Aaron at May 25, 2006 09:29 AM (/wK5H)
12
I had a real chore trying to swallow this article. With tongue planted so firmly in cheek, it made it very hard to chew.
Posted by: Jan Schaafsma at May 25, 2006 11:13 AM (Joh8X)
13
I am all for bloggers but when you start making a big issue re Arthur crossing the floor without any proof this is giving fuel to libs. Arthur is independent and should he decide to run for a certain party it is his decision. You Mr. Janke are starting to sound like MSM instilling doubts and anger in peoples minds without proof and should more people want to cross over then good for them, so far there is no law against it. (libs got 3 from the Conservative Party) and not much fuss was made about them.
Posted by: Mark DeVille at May 25, 2006 11:35 AM (XWBBP)
14
So Harper wasn't scary in oppososition Aaron? He was principled then?
It doesn't matter what Harper does, where, or how. People like you and the media are lurking in the shadows waiting to pounce...
NONE of us know much about Harper. The difference is we're willing to sit back and wait and judge him by his actions. Some people are all talk, no action (the Liberals for 13 years), some roll up their sleeves and get to work, governing in our Nation's Capital , in Canada, it can be done, believe it, wait for it.
Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2006 11:40 AM (RusDc)
15
Andre Arthur appeared on CFRA's Lunch Bunch recently. IMO, his views as presented on certain current issues fit in with the CPC stance and he admitted to this when asked by hosts. However, he did say he hasn't been approached by the Conservatives and wouldn't say whether he would consider crossing over as he was enjoying his current learning curve (my words).
Posted by: MadMacs of Bytown at May 25, 2006 11:58 AM (2oM75)
16
Cheri what Aaron hasn't realised is that the opposite is true. We had 13 years of unpricipled theaving lying from the Liberals, aided and abetted by the village idiots party.
Posted by: Pissedoff at May 25, 2006 12:09 PM (UcyjK)
17
PO'd; how ironic both Paul Martin and B.S. are bench mates in that "principled" opposition.
Posted by: Cheri at May 25, 2006 01:02 PM (RusDc)
18
"So Harper wasn't scary in oppososition Aaron? He was principled then?"
Cheri, can you explain this one? Scary?
"Cheri what Aaron hasn't realised is that the opposite is true. We had 13 years of unpricipled theaving lying from the Liberals, aided and abetted by the village idiots party."
Pissedoff, read a bit more carefully before you open your mouth. I'm not saying the Liberals weren't corrupt after 13 years. In fact I didn't even vote Liberal (or NDP) because I knew the Liberals needed to go. What I'm simply arguing is that power corrupts. Principles don't matter to politicians whose aim is to hold onto power. If the Conservatives had been in power for 13 years, I promise you I'd feel exactly the same way.
And no I won't apologize for "hiding in the shadows." Every government needs to be able to answer tough questions. Apparently this fact offends Harper (he muzzles his MPs, wages war with the press) which sounds kind of fascist to me. Even though you may support Harper, you have a duty as a citizen to be critical of your government.
Posted by: at May 28, 2006 07:43 AM (nHTEA)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Jimmy Carter sees peace and democracy -- no matter what
Ex-president Jimmy Carter seems to live in some sort of parallel universe:
Innocent Palestinian people are being treated like animals, with the presumption that they are guilty of some crime. Because they voted for candidates who are members of Hamas, the United States government has become the driving force behind an apparently effective scheme of depriving the general public of income, access to the outside world and the necessities of life.
Of course, we know that the problem is that providing funding for the Palestinians while Hamas holds the reins of power means vast sums of money are likely to end up in Hamas coffers to be used to by weapons with which to kill Israelis. This is not just a suspicion -- Yasser Arafat enriched himself to the tune of hundreds of millions, maybe more, in the same way. In any case, Hamas has not renounced violence or otherwise indicated a willingness to behave in the manner of a responsible sovereign power, and so the money will not flow.
But we can agree to disagree on what Hamas might or might not do. What we can't disagree on are the facts:
t is almost a miracle that the Palestinians have been able to orchestrate three elections during the past 10 years, all of which have been honest, fair, strongly contested, without violence and with the results accepted by winners and losers. Among the 62 elections that have been monitored by us at the Carter Center, these are among the best in portraying the will of the people.
Among the best elections monitored? The results accepted by the winners and losers? Really?
A Gaza security chief loyal to moderate president Mahmoud Abbas was killed when his car blew up Wednesday, the second attack on security commanders in the volatile area in less than a week.
It was not immediately clear who planted the bomb. The attack came during an increasingly bloody power struggle between the Hamas government and Mr. Abbas.
The security chief killed Wednesday was identified as Nabil Hodhod, head of the elite Preventive Security Service in central Gaza. The security branch has been spearheading the confrontation against the Hamas militia.
In Gaza, Hamas blamed Mr. Abbas' rival Fatah group for the kidnapping and shooting of its militants near the southern town of Khan Younis. Hamas activists said the kidnappers served in the Preventive Security Service.
Armed clashes between Hamas and Fatah intensified last week after the Hamas government deployed its own 3,000-member force of militants to the streets.
The three Hamas militants emerged from morning prayers at a mosque near the town of Khan Younis. A car with masked gunmen pulled up, bundled them into the vehicle and sped off, Hamas officials said.
About 15 minutes later, the three Hamas men were found lying in the street near a gas station. Two had been shot in the legs and the third in the abdomen and leg. Hamas officials said the man with the stomach and leg injuries died at a nearby hospital.
Fatah declined to comment on the incident.
I wonder just how violent things have to be before the observers from the Carter Center decide that these people are not really in an accepting mood, and that maybe these Palestinian elections have not really been all that successful.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
07:36 PM
| Comments (2)
| Add Comment
Post contains 571 words, total size 4 kb.
1
Carter has always lived in another universe, and no necessarily a parallel one.
Posted by: Pissedoff at May 24, 2006 10:40 PM (MBc0V)
2
maybee he's finally slipped into his dotage
Posted by: x2para at May 25, 2006 09:58 AM (feTVF)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 23, 2006
Paying top dollar for death and misery
In one of the biggest scandals to hit our oh-so-untouchable health-care system, Ontario and federal taxpayers lost millions funding a nursing home that was run by serial fraud artists.
The bankruptcy of the Royal Crest Lifecare chain and the horror stories of life in these publicly-funded tortue chambers prompted a forensic audit. I've been told that the audit has been completed. However, it has yet to see the light of day.
Why? Maybe because the health-care bureaucracy in this country is terrified of having their inept performance revealed for all to see.
Update: small dead animals asks the same question -- where is the audit?
more...
Posted by: Steve Janke at
11:55 PM
| Comments (6)
| Add Comment
Post contains 1506 words, total size 10 kb.
1
...didn't 5th Estate expose these bozo's about a year ago?
Apparently since then nothing's happened.
Sad very sad. How many more outfits like this are being covered over? We had some issues like this in Alberta, never heard more on the investigation.
More and more this will be an issue as baby boomers are shuttled off into these homes because well they raised kids in the "Me" generation.
Posted by: tomax7 at May 24, 2006 08:59 AM (jHhd0)
2
...guess i should read the whole artice...yeah it was W-Five who did a report on these guys.
What gets me is how do these guy's wive's, never mind the brothers, but their wives can go to sleep over this?
Posted by: tomax7 at May 24, 2006 09:04 AM (jHhd0)
3
...what is even more worring is the fact where are the 'kids' in all this???
The son's and daughters, the grandchildren, cousins, nephews, neices...are these all barren seniors or just plain ornary and nobody bothered to visit or check up on them?
It is hard to believe this could go on for so long - as in the smell, the sores, the dirty/soiled clothes, running out of toiletries and no one noticed per se, as in their kids visiting and doing something about it. Or at the most call the Minister of Health in - and then check back to see if things changed.
Posted by: tomax7 at May 24, 2006 09:13 AM (jHhd0)
4
It is stories like these(and there are way too many) that make one yearn for the days of the ice floes.
A friend has her mother in a home in Alberta. She is fighting every day to make sure her mom is happy, right down to having the curtains open so her mom can at least see the birds. She has a fight every day to make sure her mom's life is as good as it can be. Many of the staff are excellent and do their best, but the chief of staff is a bitc*! The stories are nothing like the ones recounted in this article, but shouldn't it be imperative that these people who can no longer fight for themselves don't have to? I cannot imagine a nurse or any human being worth the O2 they breathe allowing things like this to not only happen but continue. I fear that this is but one example of what is wrong with the entire healthcare system in our country. No one dare challange another's fiefdom--and that is what healthcare and senior care has become. No one will break their vow of silence--it is what their jobs are worth. And those in charge don't want to be bothered with everyday 'problems'--they may have to work for their pay!
Posted by: George at May 24, 2006 12:54 PM (Bc5tD)
5
The people that end up paying are the hard-working and decent staf of other nursing homes that now have lots more paper work to do, thanks to the governments oversight. Now legitimate nursing homes have to work extra hard to 'prove' that they aren't like the aforementioned scumbags.
Posted by: Jonny_eh at May 25, 2006 09:45 AM (kAfMK)
6
Your wrong Jonney_eh....
The people who end up paying... are the elderly seniors in these homes!!!
Posted by: mama bear at May 25, 2006 10:19 AM (YaR8u)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
An opportunity of a lifetime for Canadian bloggers
A massive opportunity for bloggers in Canada:
The parliamentary press gallery launched its latest salvo Tuesday in an ongoing cold war with the Harper government over media access and procedures for reporting on federal politics.
Prior to the start of a news conference in which Prime Minister Stephen Harper announced that Canada would contribute $40 million in humanitarian and military assistance to the war-torn Sudanese region of Darfur, members of the press gallery simultaneously got up and left, moments before the prime minister arrived in the room, in an act of defiance against new news conference rules imposed against the media.
So the old media doesn't want to cover Stephen Harper under these new rules? Fine. Start shooting some press releases and doing online Q&A sessions with us bloggers. Might not be as engaging as video for the evening news, but if it keeps Canadians informed, why not? It gives the government a means of getting its message out, and subjects the government to questions from people with a fresh perspective. A no one thinks bloggers are uniformly left-wing the way the old media is perceived (not entirely fairly, by the way).
Posted by: Steve Janke at
04:44 PM
| Comments (24)
| Add Comment
Post contains 208 words, total size 1 kb.
1
You're dreaming.
The Goverment doesn't want to be subjected to "questions from people with a fresh perspective", they want to be subjected to hand-picked people with predetermined questions.
Q & A sessions with bloggers is probably their worst nightmare.
Far from being a massive opportunity for bloggers, this is likely a minor setback given that most (but certainly not all) bloggers simply add their own spin to stories already reported through traditional media.
Posted by: bob at May 23, 2006 05:27 PM (fnZDj)
2
Exxxxxxxxxcellent...
There are some extremely capable people in the blogosphere. Mr. and Mrs. Harper read it.
I say go for it...
it should be fun.
Maybe even a step into the future...
ie. MP Turner
Posted by: Paul Hansen at May 23, 2006 05:31 PM (nlevv)
3
BWAAAAH!
Do the employers of these idiots pay them to make public asses of themselves?
They are making themselves redundant.....now that is progress.
Posted by: PGP at May 23, 2006 05:39 PM (iv01O)
4
It'll be front page news tomorrow. Which will be funny.
The press reporting on the press.
Posted by: Toronto Tory at May 23, 2006 05:45 PM (19Z9Z)
5
The Ministers and MPs are constantly on radio talk shows taking calls andanswering the tough questions. Getting the message out closer to the people than the Hill in Ottawa is a great idea.
I think the press gallery has lost their perpective - they try to control the government's agenda and in many cases hijack it. That's not news. That's a game by for profit unelected journalists who think their opinions are more important than yours and mine.
Posted by: maria at May 23, 2006 05:46 PM (rp6r3)
6
The Ministers and MPs are constantly on radio talk shows taking calls andanswering the tough questions.
I assume this is some sort of ironic humour. I'd actually love to see a list of Ministers' radio appearances and transcripts of these though questions.
Posted by: bob at May 23, 2006 06:08 PM (fnZDj)
7
The vast majority of the Canadian electorate isn't paying any attention to a sorry group of self important reporters in Ottawa - as evidenced by the latest poll. The nets and papers will try to make this an issue but most people will tune out what is perceived as an inside baseball issue.
Posted by: mohaqu at May 23, 2006 07:47 PM (QRmKM)
8
I thought you BT'ers always dismissed polls - the only poll that matters is the one on Election Day... Remember? Seeing as we arent going to be in an election for another year, if you guys wanna go all gah-gah over this particular poll.. go for it. A lot of things can change in a year, as Mr. Martin found out.
As for bloggers asking questions of the PMO, I'm presuming you're saying ALL bloggers should get to ask the PM questions.. not just you BT'ers who'd do nothing more then lob softball questions at the guy. We have 283 Prog Bloggers who I am sure would all love to ask the PM questions - and he'd get a lot tougher ones then he's currently getting with the Press Gallery. So yea.. I think its a great idea - provided you include us on the ideological opposite side of the aisle.
Posted by: Scott Tribe at May 23, 2006 09:11 PM (Jqgzd)
9
The press gallery needs to get off their high horse and start doing their job. If they want to play silly games with the Prime Minister and walk out of press briefings then I agree with Angry - let bloggers fill the void. I also agree with Scott Tribe - let bloggers of all political stripes fill the void.
Tribe don't forget there are plenty of conservatives out there who think Harper is going too soft, so you could expect our questions to be hard.
Posted by: Andrew Smith at May 23, 2006 09:21 PM (J7aoz)
10
Tribe don't forget there are plenty of conservatives out there who think Harper is going too soft, so you could expect our questions to be hard.
Which is exactly why this entire thing is a pipe-dream.
Posted by: bob at May 24, 2006 12:06 AM (fnZDj)
11
No mention of the press gangs little hissy fit in the Vancouver Sun today, just that Stephen Harper turned on his heals when questioned. About par for the Sun.
Posted by: morison at May 24, 2006 06:54 AM (DRtQx)
12
Harper is very pro-blog, and his wife reads dozens of them a day. I don't think your speculation is too far off the mark. I think he's be happy to have the bloggers in the gallery.
RG
Posted by: RightGirl at May 24, 2006 08:35 AM (XkVXQ)
13
It's funny, a lot of people here are slamming the Press for "not doing their job" by walking out on what was SUPPOSEDLY a "news conference". What few mention is that for the reporters who remained, as the Vancouver Sun article states, Harper "[took] no questions from reporters after making the announcement". So the PPG walked out on a staged announcement at which the Prime Minister refused to take questions. For shame! (not).
I don't see why the Press bothers to show up to any of these things anymore. Couldn't the government just save the news industry some money and tape these announcements themselves? They're not interested in being questioned by the press, so I don't see why the press needs to be there to cover the announcement. Just fax the announcement to the newspapers, and send tapes to the T.V. stations.
I really don't see why the PM ever needs to be seen in person in public again.
Posted by: Lord Kitchener's Own at May 24, 2006 08:37 AM (ZaMIu)
14
Harper refused to take questions after the gallery refused to submit the names of the attendees to a list so that they could be called out in order, as opposed to the old scheme where the question posed in the loudest voice was the one answered.
In press conferences in Toronto and other places, where reporters followed the new rules, the PM has answered dozens of questions, and has stayed over to chat with reporters.
Posted by: Steve Janke at May 24, 2006 08:45 AM (Frxei)
15
That's certainly one way to spin it.
Posted by: Aaron at May 24, 2006 08:58 AM (9fVcF)
16
so that they could be called out in order
The real question is: in order of what?
Posted by: bob at May 24, 2006 09:28 AM (4EUc/)
17
In order of intelligence I suppose, Bob.
Posted by: Irwin Daisy at May 24, 2006 12:55 PM (MkblT)
18
To Bob
The Rutherford show had Rona Ambrose on yesterday answering questions about the Ethanol announcement it is an ambitious program and I felt fairly informed
Posted by: ian at May 24, 2006 01:03 PM (KqGpk)
19
I laughed yesterday when the news reader on CKNW yesterday called her "Ronna". Just a talking head, yes, but you would think these jokers might know who they are talking about even if they were reading a typo.
Posted by: morison at May 24, 2006 02:14 PM (DRtQx)
20
Rutherford has also had Vic Toews on today, Stockwell Day last week, and Chuck Strahl as well. Every segment allowed public input and not all was complimentary.
Maybe people need to start paying attention to all that is being said instead of sitting at work playing solitaire and listening to music. Nobody ever listens to the message until it becomes a crisis, then all hell breaks loose.
Posted by: Jan Schaafsma at May 24, 2006 02:35 PM (Joh8X)
21
I laughed yesterday when the news reader on CKNW yesterday called her "Ronna". Just a talking head, yes, but you would think these jokers might know who they are talking about even if they were reading a typo.
Ummm, I think she does pronounce it that way, and not with the long 'o'; but I could be mistaken.
Posted by: timincan at May 24, 2006 03:19 PM (4EUc/)
22
Steve Janke.. Excellecnt idea, and if the public slowly learns who *POLITICAL BLOGGERS* are, People who take a special interest ...cutting edge like, then the public are bound to pick up enthusiasm and interest.
Your light shines bright today my son! Remember..Bob is our resident foil. I see no logical argument in his distracts so far.
*ALSO IMPORTANY**!!
MsM is asleep at the wheel on this.
No, the band is GREAT!
It*s the MSM that seems sickly lately.
*Tomorrow is a very important day for the future of the Internet,*
said Paul Misener, an Amazon vice president. He warned that phone and cable companies will run roughshod over their customers, *unless Congress acts to stop them* by approving alternative legislation prepared by Sens. Olympia Snowe of Maine and Byron Dorgan of North Dakota.
By Declan McCullagh
Staff Writer, CNET News.com
Published: May 24, 2006, 10:41 AM PDT : http://tinyurl.com/fa8h4
My personal opinion? Rogers Sugar were criminals when workers owed them mony after a months work.
Multiply that ten fold for today*s Pirates AT&T and Rogers. TG
Posted by: TonyGuitar at May 24, 2006 03:45 PM (2GVBQ)
23
Ian,
You may have felt "fairly informed" anout the ethanol announcement, but if you truly feel it's an "ambitious program" then you aren't well-informed enough.
In the U.S., most states require 10-20% ethanol, not this measily 5%. And most experts agree that at a 5% rate, the environmental advantages of ethanol won't come close to outweighing all the pollution created to plant, harvest and process the ethanol. The reduction of GHG from 5% ethanol content in gasoline is only (remotely) significant if you ignore the increase in GHG needed to produce the ethanol in the first place.
I'm surpirsed no one asked the Minister of the Environment about that.
Maybe the people who knew enough to ask the question were too far down on some list.
Posted by: Lord Kitchener's Own at May 24, 2006 04:20 PM (ZaMIu)
24
My apology, then, however then the CTV has it wrong. Now I am confused.
Posted by: morison at May 25, 2006 06:09 AM (DRtQx)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Wickedly funny Ben Stein
Ben Stein is an icon in American conservatism. But most people know him from his work in entertainment where his monotone delivery is guaranteed to evoke a laugh.
Interestingly, it's where the two aspects of Stein intersect that gives me the giggles.
Stein is also the spokesman for Clear Eyes, a brand of eye drop to relieve bloodshot eyes. A pciture of Stein appears at the top of the Clear Eyes web site. In a new commercial that has just started airing, Stein is shown wearing a beret and neck scarf while extolling the virtues of the eye drops. Behind him on the wall is a drawing of a bloodshot eye. He turns and throws a bucket of water onto the drawing, and the red lines are washed away.
His getup and the water gag evoke for me the image of Jackson Pollack, also known as Jack the Dripper. Jackson was a famous American artist from the 40s and 50s who is best known for dripping and splashing paint on a canvas and calling it art. Maybe it was art -- I admit to being somewhat art-blind.
What is less well known is that Pollack was a radical and a communist during the 30s.
What is even less well known is his membership in the American Committee for Cultural Freedom, an anti-communist advocacy group that formed in 1950 as a response to the urging of many leftists and pacifists to make peace with Josef Stalin and the Soviet Union. The ACCF was hardly a nest of right-wing Republicans -- politically, their only disagreement with the pro-Stalin group was whether radicalism in art and politics could thrive in a bourgeois democracy, or whether that freedom required embracing communism, specifically Stalin's. In 1967, eleven years after Pollack's death in a drunk-driving accident, it was revealed that the CIA had covertly provided much of the funding for the organization (as well as other non-communist leftist groups), much to the embarrassment of both the CIA (embarrassed that the secret had gotten out) and the artists (embarrassed by their association with the CIA, even it was unintended).
I'm certain Stein knows all this, being one of the smartest guys around. So I wonder if he is having a bit of fun with the radical artistes of today, aping the style and manners of one of the founders of the art-doesn't-require-skill school, amused that radical Pollack is yet again being used by conservatives. Not for politics, but by corporate interests to schlep eye drops.
I'm sure the commercial was developed by an advertising agency, but I'd like to think Stein had a hand in it. If so, maybe Stein is saying something about the long-term influence of people like Pollack and their radical politics and their avant-garde tastes. That is, not much influence at all, as their innate silliness dooms them to become subjects of parody. I'd love to ask him one day.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
08:14 AM
| Comments (1)
| Add Comment
Post contains 495 words, total size 3 kb.
1
Ben Stein is not only brilliant, he is damned funny.
Bueller? Bueller? Frye? Frye?
Posted by: isirota1965 at May 23, 2006 06:25 PM (SBnaB)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 21, 2006
Da Vinci Dross
Let me start off by admitting I have not read The Da Vinci Code, and I probably won't anytime soon. I have less intention of going to see the movie.
I have a strange feeling I've seen it already.
more...
Posted by: Steve Janke at
01:11 PM
| Comments (51)
| Add Comment
Post contains 941 words, total size 7 kb.
1
Steve
The DaVinci Code is fiction. It never has nor will it ever be sold as non-fiction. It doesn't pass the smell test as anything but a good mystery thriller in my mind. It is fun to speculate about Mary Magdelane's relationship with Jesus, or anyone else for that matter. But, alas, all it can ever be is speculation. Unless..deep in the Vatican library there is a scroll...
Posted by: steve d. at May 21, 2006 02:20 PM (sw5R/)
2
But of course, DVC
is being sold as non-fiction, or at least, apologetically non-fiction (to readers: we have to call this non-fiction, although it is entirely true because we are afraid that angry Catholics will visit our house in Connecticut to protest and tread on our pansies).
A couple of years ago (I think when the book came out) there were a couple of CNN docs, one of which promoted alternative stories for Christ the other emphasizing the importance of Magdelene. Their intepretation of Mary was as a prostitute, an adultress, who was the symbol of the forgiveness of Jesus. Of course, this meant that Mary of Magdelene would have been also the "cast the first stone" Mary which she was not.
People love inventing their own versions of herstory.
Posted by: Brian Lemon at May 21, 2006 02:56 PM (PjbIr)
3
Simon Templar wasn't ...real? Ohmygawd!
Posted by: Hank at May 21, 2006 03:46 PM (MYChe)
4
Amazing as it sounds, and as much as I am shocked by it,...I agree with Steve_D. Other people have taken Dan Brown's work as non-fiction. Brown himself has never made any claims to that affect.
Denouncers abound, yet on the first page of the book Brown has a list of facts. Everything else is FICTION. These religious dolts blasting The Da Vinci Code as lies should remember that. But of course, you wouldn't know that unless you've read the book. Which most of them are loathe to do because it questions their faith.
Posted by: Regis at May 21, 2006 06:47 PM (PDlfz)
5
It sounds like you're taking it a bit too seriously. It's a piece of fiction, nothing more. It's Christians who are turning it into a bigger deal than it should be. It's almost like they're afraid.
I'm not saying the story is true: elements of it are plausible, but other parts are just fantasy. The Vatican used to be a pretty violent organization, I could see them killing to keep a secret, hundreds of years ago. Over 2,000 years details can be muddied, so it's possible the Christ was married.
I just laugh at all the Christians - and I am one - who are going absolutely crazy over a book turned into a movie. Get over it people. The world isn't going to collapse because someone's questioning Jesus.
Posted by: sean at May 21, 2006 07:06 PM (z8naz)
6
IT IS ENTERTAINMENT...thats it.
However, if that was a movie about another monotheist religon and its founder then there would be blood in the streets.
Go see the movie, or dont your choice, it is a free society and thats how it should remain. One where movies and books and cartoons are able to riff on religous stories and symbols. The fact that they, the symbols and stories, are sacred is what makes it an interesting story....
Article in the Star today about the failure of the mullahocracy in Iran, there is hope yet, while we have Haroon Siddiqui taking the side of those who would banish Ms Ali out of the Netherlands because she dared raise criticisms of islamic culture. What a day of contradictions.
Posted by: Stephen at May 21, 2006 07:53 PM (upnxu)
7
My God! I grew up with Leslie Charteris and I'm seventy three. Its good to hear from another fan. Answer one question, what was the full name of the Saints occasional side kick Hoppy.
Posted by: ronrob at May 21, 2006 08:34 PM (14sIs)
8
I just finished re-reading the DiVinci Code before going to see the movie to see how the movie captures or not the book.
It has been several years since I had read the book, and had forgotten what a GREAT fast paced thriller it is. Since all of the hubbub and arguments about the accuracy of a work of fiction. Go figure. Every time another debunking show comes on TV, Dan Brown sells many more books and loads the Brinks Truck up with loot to take off to the bank.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Dan Brown is behind all the criticism of the DiVinci Code. It's a great scam.
If you can read the book and not recognize it as fiction, I feel sorry for you.
Posted by: at May 21, 2006 08:38 PM (7LZ2O)
9
I just finished re-reading the DiVinci Code before going to see the movie to see how the movie captures or not the book.
It has been several years since I had read the book, and had forgotten what a GREAT fast paced thriller it is. Since all of the hubbub and arguments about the accuracy of a work of fiction. Go figure. Every time another debunking show comes on TV, Dan Brown sells many more books and loads the Brinks Truck up with loot to take off to the bank.
I have a sneaking suspicion that Dan Brown is behind all the criticism of the DiVinci Code. It's a great scam.
If you can read the book and not recognize it as fiction, I feel sorry for you.
Posted by: the Dragon at May 21, 2006 08:38 PM (7LZ2O)
10
To those who try to blame the controversy over TDaVC on Christians, I'd like to point out that that is only partly correct. The backlash from Christian groups is because so many people reading the book are forgetting that it's fiction. Even when I read the book, probably about 3-4 years ago, I remember it being an issue and wondering how or why any intelligent person would read a novel and take it for fact. Apparently, things haven't gotten any better.
I do agree, though, that some of the Christian reactions are way overboard and probably backfiring. All that free publicity has probably sold more books than anything else.
Posted by: kunoichi at May 21, 2006 08:55 PM (RtGr9)
11
Ah yes, but what was the nickname "Peter" really standing for? A much looser translation of such, as perhaps from the Cotton Patch translation of various parts of the New Testament, renders "Peter" as "Rocky". That kinda makes a wee bit more sense with the line about "...on this rock...". That shows a more internal consistency than having to drag in Gnostic silliness.
The movie was long on exposition and got some basic history wrong. As a starting point for evangelization such as in a movie theater lobby it is a good thing. For artistic value...I simply liked the reminder of all the sights in Paris that I saw when I last visited in 1998.
Not a great movie for a librarian like me to go see. I eagerly await instead the 24 movie to be set in England. That should be neat.
Posted by: S.M.K. at May 21, 2006 09:35 PM (qlvTU)
12
Dan Brown wants it both ways. On one hand it claims it is a work of fiction but on the first few pages it mentions the Priory and says it is a real organization (which is isn't, actually). You can't say "this is fiction...but there's a lot of truth in it"
As for being a well written book, I'd disagree. There were so many mentions of the shock the leading lady experienced when she saw her (grand?)father that by the time Brown got around to finally describing what she saw, I didn't care.
She was shocked.
She was shocked what she saw in the basement.
She was shocked what she saw in the basement with the hooded figures.
She was shocked what she saw in the basement with the hooded figures and the ancient rites.
She was shocked what she saw in the basement with the hooded figures and the ancient rites and her (grand?)father right in the middle of of the ritual
She was shocked....blah, blah, blah.
As for character development, there was none.
So why was it so immensely popular. Probably for the same reason that American Idol is so immensely popular.
Posted by: Darren at May 21, 2006 10:41 PM (E8rOy)
13
ronrob, that would be "Hoppy Uniatz" the dimwitted but reliable thug who drank Vat69 like it was lemonade.
Posted by: Mac at May 22, 2006 12:55 AM (TaDbz)
14
Dan Brown is a poor writer who relies on "hollywood imagery" to sell his books. I have yet to be the least bit impressed with his crappy writing.(I have read a lot, thanks to my mother in lawe who loves him
')
Posted by: Daryl H at May 22, 2006 03:43 AM (kAsD7)
15
It took a bit of work to get through this book. It is just bad writing with "facts" that are not facts.
The early bishops tromped on the three (Mary, Martha and Johanna), no doubt about that. Mary had a fight with Peter & Paul on one side and a few of the other Apostles on Mary's side: The fight was over her right to be a teacher/leader. That we can say with a fair bit of assurance. We can say with assurance that Mary M. was more than just another camp follower: She stood as an teacher/witness/Apostle in her own right. That's as far as we can go.
Going beyond the above is daft. Sadly, there are many who want to go far beyond "Mary got shafted by the early bishop's sexism."
I worry about people's current demand for a sacred feminine. People refuse, in the very same breath, to include the shadow side of the feminine; due to this we find ourselves in a bad situation. We cannot fully include the sacred feminine without including the shadow feminine for to do so creates a lie and a dangerous one too. Sadly, this dangerous lie IS --in every way is-- our society as it currently exists.
We live in a culture where the feminine is upheld as the standard of good. We also live in a society where the shadow side of the feminine causes real harm, with few holding up that self same shadow for all to see. This creates real and measurable harm to all people.
In all ways Christianity has shown both the sacred and shadow masculine. We should have added the sacred and shadow feminine many centuries ago; we did not. This has lead to today's deeply problematic society.
Brown's book shows the size and scope of our problem with the feminine; that is a big part of the book's attraction. DaVinci holds the same "sacred feminine without shadow feminine" which is the heart problem of western culture.
For Canada to be a better place we must reject the heart of the DaVinci Code: We must fully include both the sacred female and the shadow female. For only by doing so may we hope to move forward as a gread land.
Posted by: jw at May 22, 2006 04:20 AM (OfyVr)
16
JW,
Nice post. The way these yin yang/male female/duality things work is that there is duality within duality. Maleness has good and bad things and so does femaleness (sacred and shadow feminine)
At the end of the day its all about balance. Of course for the advocates on any side, when you scratch beneath the surface its all about power.
There are problems that manifest themselves today, the drop in school performance of males, the intolerance of natural "male behaviour" in boys in school. I have a son and a duaghter and there has been a swing against boys by some teachers, sad to see the effect it has on a 4 year old boy who knows no better. Fortunately there has been a teacher change and his love of school has shot up.
Anyway, nice post JW
Posted by: Stephen at May 22, 2006 05:57 AM (upnxu)
17
http://www.theinfozone.net is featuring AGWN as one of our featured bloggers (May 22) in a report on the blogsphere.
http://www.theinfozone.net/blogsphere.html covers past reports in this new feature.
TIZ
Posted by: TIZReporter at May 22, 2006 06:43 AM (Ht25X)
18
Regis: The problem is that Brown's so-called facts on his first page are also partly fictional. Brown spins a good tale, and it is fiction, but it is written in such a way as to purport that it's just the story that's fictional-- all the historical details are expected to be correct. And that's where I have a problem with it. Yes, it's fiction. But it claims to be *historical* fiction--Brown has claimed this--and that, it is patently not.
Posted by: Alex at May 22, 2006 09:00 AM (sVRBv)
19
I read it and enjoyed it. I will probably see the movie, though fear disappointment because almost always the book is better. One thing that bothers me, though, is when someone criticizes without actually reading it. Read it and criticize, but don't criticize because of what others have said.
Posted by: morison at May 22, 2006 09:39 AM (DRtQx)
20
Brown has claimed this
Reference please. Because everytime I've ever seen Brown interviewed he has emphasized in the strongest words possible that it is a novel, and that anyone who takes it as more than such is off base.
Get over it. It is a novel.
Posted by: tim at May 22, 2006 10:42 AM (fnZDj)
21
"Reference please. Because everytime I've ever seen Brown interviewed he has emphasized in the strongest words possible that it is a novel, and that anyone who takes it as more than such is off base."
From Dan Brown's
official website:
"While the book's characters and their actions are obviously not real, the artwork, architecture, documents, and secret rituals depicted in this novel all exist (for example, Leonardo Da Vinci's paintings, the Gnostic Gospels, Hieros Gamos, etc.). These real elements are interpreted and debated by fictional characters. While it is my belief that some of the theories discussed by these characters may have merit, each individual reader must explore these characters' viewpoints and come to his or her own interpretations. My hope in writing this novel was that the story would serve as a catalyst and a springboard for people to discuss the important topics of faith, religion, and history."
That sort of thing gets repeated over and over. It's fiction, he says, so don't blame me for being offended, but everything I wrote about is historical and should be discussed as facts and not as fiction.
Can't have it both ways.
I've also seen an interview, and in it he clearly states that he researched such things as the Priory of Sion and is convinced that the documentation is authentic. He talks like a historian, but insists he's just a fiction writer when confronted by real historians.
Posted by: Steve Janke at May 22, 2006 11:57 AM (DUCPj)
22
"It's fiction, he says, so don't blame me for being offended, but everything I wrote about is historical and should be discussed as facts and not as fiction.
Can't have it both ways."
I don't see how that is having it both ways. Historical fiction is nothing new: think of all the romance novels set in the American Civil War. There is a difference between writing nonfiction and writing fiction that incorporates actual events.
Frankly I find the idea that Jesus had sex with Mary Magdalene less far-fetched than, say, the idea that Jesus rose from the dead. The organizers of religion always pick and choose which myths and legends become part of the dogma and which are left out, and Christianity is no different in that respect.
Posted by: Ade at May 22, 2006 02:06 PM (4p91Z)
23
Steve,
First, you write as if the Bible and Vatican somehow have revealed the objective truth to us, not just theological truth, but also historical truth. This is of course not correct. Your belief in the Bible, Christ etc is based on faith, not on facts. (The "the Bible is the truth because the Bible says it is the truth" argument doesn't really cut it.)
Second, if you consider it obvious (like I do) that it is a fundamental right to publish the so called Muhammed cartoons, then it is also obvious that it is Browns fundamental right to publish a novel. What's the problem?
In fact, even if Brown claimed that his book is indeed non-fiction (e.g. a historical research paper), shouldn't you defend his right to publish it (albeit argue the facts, as necessary)? Why the hysteria?
Please, focus on something important, such as our tax & spend Conservative government, or the corrupt Liberal party.
Posted by: Johan i Kanada at May 22, 2006 09:06 PM (oXLd2)
24
Funnily enough, I too recall that Saint novel, but as it turns out, it *wasn't* written by Charteris. It's called *The Saint and the Templar Treasure*, and it's credited to Graham Weaver and Donne Averell.
http://www.saint.org/books.htm
Posted by: PhantomObserver at May 22, 2006 09:50 PM (G+EbY)
25
Mac
Thanks a lot, as I recall Hoppy could spit a BB with almost deadly force
Posted by: ronrob at May 22, 2006 10:09 PM (14sIs)
26
"a movie that has opened to resoundingly bad reviews"
And did $74 million at the box office the first weekend.
Posted by: dmorris at May 22, 2006 10:40 PM (0/8vq)
27
Yeah. Right. Great bit of fiction for the Mormons to spread their heresy with.
As for Peter being the "rock" Jesus spoke of, try reading it in the Bible. The Rock is Jesus Himself.
Posted by: at May 22, 2006 11:08 PM (Rww+E)
28
Why am I not surprised that at least one commenter brought up the Mohammad cartoons and free speech crap?
Um, ok. No one said that Dan Brown couldn't or shouldn't publish DVC, or that it shouldn't be made into a movie.
We just think it's crap. And so we say so.
That's a little bit different than saying he should have his head cut off or starting riots.
Please try to focus and stay on topic, Johan i Kanada. Mixing apples and oranges, dude.
Posted by: Heather Cook at May 22, 2006 11:26 PM (4SQNC)
29
You "just think it's crap. And so we say so."
Well, just a few days ago an editorial in my usually reasonable newspaper (NP) compared DVC to hate speech (thus illegal)...
So what is Steve's point then? Just that the DVC stuff is crap, nothing else? In that case, can he give me advice on some other literary works as well? Has he become a literary critic?
Btw, and I would really like to know, what does Steve (and other DVC critics) think about Eco's Name of the Rose?
Posted by: Johan i Kanada at May 23, 2006 12:15 AM (oXLd2)
30
Funnily enough, I too recall that Saint novel, but as it turns out, it *wasn't* written by Charteris. It's called *The Saint and the Templar Treasure*, and it's credited to Graham Weaver and Donne Averell.
Thanks! That's why I couldn't find it -- I was focusing on lists of Charteris' works. One less thing to bother me.
Posted by: Steve Janke at May 23, 2006 08:36 AM (4IJNq)
31
Johan in K,
"First, you write as if the Bible and Vatican somehow have revealed the objective truth to us, not just theological truth, but also historical truth. This is of course not correct. Your belief in the Bible, Christ etc is based on faith, not on facts. (The "the Bible is the truth because the Bible says it is the truth" argument doesn't really cut it.)"
Biblical exegesis is a two-thousand-year-old field of study with a great deal more authenticity, research, and double-checking of facts going for it than the dashed-off pseudohistory of Brown's sources. Many of the letters of Paul, just as an example, have been independently verified and collectively agreed, by scholars both Christian and non-Christian, to be written by the actual Paul, the real Jewish scholar who can be historically proven to have travelled the ancient world preaching -- some of them have been conclusively dated from less than two decades after Christ's death.
You might be interested in the website www.earlychristianwritings.com for a good smorgasbord introduction to the earliest Christian documents, their historicity, and the studies made of them. One thing they clearly demonstrate is that virtually without exception, every official New Testament element not only
predates the fragmentary documents and historical vaguenesses used as the basis of the theories of Baigent, Picknell, Pagels, et al, but explicitly contradict them in many instances.
The Bible's historical authenticity rests on a great deal more study than its own say-so. Another great book for this is Thomas Cahill's
Desire of the Everlasting Hills, which is a brilliant introduction to the historical study of Jesus of Nazareth.
"Second, if you consider it obvious (like I do) that it is a fundamental right to publish the so called Muhammed cartoons, then it is also obvious that it is Browns fundamental right to publish a novel. What's the problem?"
No problem at all, as far as publishing a "novel" goes.
It's Brown's claim (which he
has made in numerous places; Steve cited one above, and you can Google any interview with Brown from 2005 or before for others) that the novel's historical thesis is fundamentally accurate, or at least that there is enough verifiable historical evidence for it that it should serve as just cause for seriously questioning not only the accepted record, but the entire basis of the theology and message of the Catholic Church (and thereby virtually every single sect of Christianity in any form).
There's a term for the deliberate publication of verifiable falsehoods in an effort to damage the character, standing or status of a person or organization: it's called "libel".
Let me ask you this: How would you react to a pulp thriller novel based on the presumption that a vast religious conspiracy has effectively controlled Western civilization for 2,000 years, and whose author claimed both implicitly and explicitly that the "history" revealed in the book was true... if the conspiracy in question was that outlined in
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion?
Would you really feel utterly untroubled saying to outraged Jewish friends or colleagues, "What's the big deal? It's just a novel, get over it -- he's got the right to publish what he wants"?
Posted by: Stephen J. at May 23, 2006 09:32 AM (+7vgB)
32
I guess an organization living in fear of having a secret scroll discovered and keeping it hidden for centuries makes a more exciting read for a fiction novel than having the original finder just destroy the scroll. Which is what I would do with a secret. Obviously if I wrote the book it would have been really short. Pretty dumb, even for fictional characters.
Posted by: Reader in Alberta at May 23, 2006 11:21 AM (2IC3P)
33
Small point, Johan in K:
"First, you write as if the Bible and Vatican somehow have revealed the objective truth to us, not just theological truth, but also historical truth. This is of course not correct. Your belief in the Bible, Christ etc is based on faith, not on facts. (The "the Bible is the truth because the Bible says it is the truth" argument doesn't really cut it.)"
There are mounds of historical truth in the Bible, particularly the New Testament. Catholics (the "Vatican") has never claimed that the Bible claims itself as the truth - that's a Protestant formulation - Catholics believe in the Bible because those who wrote it were willing to die for the truths contained in it. The witness of the martyrs is probably the most foolish thing in the Christian world if what they wrote is false. As such, my faith in the Christ of the Bible has more to do with factual events/witness than with the interpretation itself. Why would people peacefully allow themselves to be put to death for their beliefs if they knew they had falsified them in the first place?
BTW, I have read the DVC, and may see the movie (though not until it's a rental, and Brown gets a lot less of my $$ from the process). It was an interesting read - as a teacher in a Catholic school, I figured it worthwhile to know something about it to answer my students. "Serious" questions arising from the book are easily answered to anyone not steeped in conspiracy theories. One question I have: why did Brown not include a single respected Christian source (of which there are many; both current, and historical - in response to Gnosticism, which DVC most assuredly is the latest incarnation of) throughout his 'research'?
Posted by: Shane O. at May 23, 2006 12:45 PM (IA1Tg)
34
...hey did Indiana Jones find the Holy Grail yet? Oh wait, that was a British exploratory expedition wasn't it?
...is it african or european swallow?
Posted by: tomax7 at May 23, 2006 12:49 PM (jHhd0)
35
Lighten up everyone.
It was a movie! made in Holywood! It is fiction!
If it wasn't a movie made by Hollywood, it would be . ......a documentary on PBS
Posted by: ian at May 23, 2006 01:03 PM (KqGpk)
36
Stephen J:
"There's a term for the deliberate publication of verifiable falsehoods in an effort to damage the character, standing or status of a person or organization: it's called "libel"."
Perhaps, but:
- First, Christianity is not based on verifiable truths. (In fact, it is a verifiable falsehood that people can walk on water or virgins become pregnant.)
- Second this is a novel, not a historical thesis.
- Third, even if it were a historical thesis, it cannot be libel to put in doubt a particular religion (or version thereof). Because, if if it were, should then all Protestants be sued for libel by the Pope? Should all Muslims be sued for libel by Christianity? Of course not.
- Fourth, isn't it my inalienable right to criticize ("damage the status") of any religion, any political party, any philosophy, even if I'm factually wrong?
In conclusion, I don't think libel comes into play in this case.
Posted by: Johan i Kanada at May 23, 2006 01:29 PM (oXLd2)
37
None of us was around during the first century, so we are free to believe whatever we like about it. But if you decide to ignore the evidence that survives as to what did happen, then you're being irrational. Jesus is one of the best documented figures of the first century. To deny that he existed is simply irrational. Every bit as irrational as holocaust denial, and for the same reason.
The DVC is a wretchedly bad book. No matter how popular it got, it wouldn't be of any interest, except for one thing: it sells to people who hate their Christian neighbours, and want to be believe something, anything, no matter how obviously false and dishonest, in order to rationalise that insane hatred. That's scary.
Posted by: ebt at May 23, 2006 01:31 PM (7y2db)
38
Shane O:
"Why would people peacefully allow themselves to be put to death for their beliefs if they knew they had falsified them in the first place?"
Ask a jihadist. (Although of course neither martyrs nor jihadists believe they are factually wrong, as they are/were both carried by their faith.)
Btw (and I truly would like to understand), why is Gnosticism such a bad thing? From a historical & factual perspective, is Gnosticism really less valid than Christianity?
Posted by: Johan i Kanada at May 23, 2006 01:35 PM (oXLd2)
39
I'd agree with many posters. The DVC is a badly written book. It's made up a a series of short scenes or events, each about two pages long. But, nothing happens. The writing is so bad that it took a great deal of effort to refrain from throwing it in the trash (I finally did; I couldn't handle it anymore).
There's no plot line other than Find the Grail and mutter about decoding, no decent conversations or debates, no characters or character development. A lot of statements of shock and despair. Simplistic plot, simplistic characters.
Just compare with any Harry Potter for a comparable scenario of 'searching for the whatever', be it philosopher's stone or secret or etc. Now, the Potter books are extremely well-written, but this Dan Brown book is abysmal.
Compare it with Eco's Name of the Rose. Compare it with any decent mystery writer. Brown is a terrible writer. And now, a wealthy terrible writer.
Posted by: ET at May 23, 2006 02:12 PM (rBXcG)
40
ebt:
"it sells to people who hate their Christian neighbours, and want to be believe something, anything, no matter how obviously false and dishonest, in order to rationalise that insane hatred. That's scary"
How many readers of DVC do you know (or know of) who hate their Christian neighbors? Who are these people?
(Btw, very few denies that Jesus existed. Come to think of it, I'm not sure I know of anyone. But of course there are many who doubts Jesus' divinity etc, but that's another story.)
Posted by: Johan i Kanada at May 23, 2006 02:30 PM (oXLd2)
41
ET:
Regarding Eco, if I'm not mistaken, 'Name of the Rose' was quite critical to the Catholic church (too). I'm curious, was there a similar debate then?
Posted by: Johan i Kanada at May 23, 2006 02:35 PM (oXLd2)
42
Steve Janke you need to read all the four gospels and compare them. I guarantee you there are serious discrepancies. There are some serious disagreements between who saw Jesus first, the angel or angels at the tomb, the visitations etc.
Evidence A: If all the disciples fled when Christ was arrested, who wrote the detail discriptions of what tok place.
Evidence B: According one of the books, the disciples fell asleep in the garden so witnessed the word of Jesus' prayer?
Evidence C: In the temptation of Christ, who was the witness to the words exchanged between Jesus and the Devil?
Just like Dan Brown, it seem those books are also figments of their author's imagination..
Posted by: Citizen of the Great White North at May 23, 2006 03:02 PM (X6p7A)
43
Steve j:
I agree with you, other than Matthew 16:18. The 'rock' that Jesus referred to is in verse 17 - the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God.
Johan,
Comparing jihadists to early Christian martyrs is apples to oranges. Jihadists owe more to their spiritual ancestors - the Assassins. Besides, Christian martyrs weren't suicidal murderers, being offered 72 black eyed virgins as reward - rather, they were murdered for holding to their faith. To them (and to many Christian missionaries since then) preaching the revelation of Christ is the divine mission, even if it means giving up your life.
Posted by: Irwin Daisy at May 23, 2006 03:12 PM (MkblT)
44
Citizen,
Rather than disproving the NT, these differences support it. On minor observations, people have their own POV (just ask any detective). On all major Biblical issues, the writers completely agree. Otherwise, over the course of 2000 years, especially during the 'dark' ages - don't you think somebody would have homogenized the whole thing through editing? Conspiracies abound.
Think about it.
Posted by: Irwin Daisy at May 23, 2006 03:20 PM (MkblT)
45
It is troubling that many who have not read the book or seen the movie and have no intention doing so are quick to pass judgement on the author and his work.
The movie is good, not great, but it is good. The Divinci Code is a good adventure yarn. It is not high art or masterful writing. Neither is Tom Clancy, but who can put down "The Hunt for Red October"?
It is historic fiction just like the Bible. A made up story loosely based on historic places and events. If Dan Brown's work does nothing more than make people aware of the tenuos historic foundation of Christianity then it will have been a success not only as an entertaining movie and book, but as an agent for stimulating thought.
Thinking is one thing our society needs to do more of.
Posted by: Cardstonkid at May 23, 2006 03:28 PM (kvZ4g)
46
Christians, especially Catholics, have every right to be upset with Dan Brown's 'fact-based' fiction.
Here's why.
Posted by: Linda at May 23, 2006 07:51 PM (oCPrU)
47
As they had every right to be upset by Luther's 95 theses.
Watch out, here they come again...
Posted by: Johan i Kanada at May 23, 2006 08:37 PM (oXLd2)
48
Sigh. "Who's afraid of the big bad Catholics." You just proved the point of the post I linked to, Johan.
Posted by: Linda at May 24, 2006 02:45 PM (oCPrU)
49
Johan, to your questions,
"why is Gnosticism such a bad thing? From a historical & factual perspective, is Gnosticism really less valid than Christianity?"
The simple answer is that yes, Gnosticism is less valid, historically and factually, than Christianity.
First of all, G-ism ignores (at least downplays) the accounts of Christ's life that were written by the people who knew Christ (one of the criteria for acceptance of the 4 Gospels is that they were either written by an Apostle, or by someone who lived in the company of an Apostle - basically first-hand accounts). Instead, they wrote their own accounts many years later. Simply in the interests of reporting accurately, this makes the Gnostic accounts suspect. (As an aside - the Gnostic gospels, if it can be believed, are actually worse writing than DVC; the Jesus they contain is plastic).
The Christian reaction against Gnosticism is predicated on the confusion that unreliable accounts sow among the faithful. The Jesus of the Gnostic 'gospels' is not the Jesus the early martyrs died for.
As for the difference between jihadists and martyrs: I see a profound difference between seeking death, including the death of 'infidels' as a path to glory; and accepting a not-sought-for death by refusing to renounce what you believe to be true.
Posted by: Shane O. at May 24, 2006 09:15 PM (N6HS/)
50
Johan, to your questions,
"why is Gnosticism such a bad thing? From a historical & factual perspective, is Gnosticism really less valid than Christianity?"
The simple answer is that yes, Gnosticism is less valid, historically and factually, than Christianity.
First of all, G-ism ignores (at least downplays) the accounts of Christ's life that were written by the people who knew Christ (one of the criteria for acceptance of the 4 Gospels is that they were either written by an Apostle, or by someone who lived in the company of an Apostle - basically first-hand accounts). Instead, they wrote their own accounts many years later. Simply in the interests of reporting accurately, this makes the Gnostic accounts suspect. (As an aside - the Gnostic gospels, if it can be believed, are actually worse writing than DVC; the Jesus they contain is plastic compared to the 4 accepted gospels).
The Christian reaction against Gnosticism is predicated on the confusion that unreliable accounts sow among the faithful. The Jesus of the Gnostic 'gospels' is not the Jesus the early martyrs died for.
As for the difference between jihadists and martyrs: I see a profound difference between seeking death, including the death of 'infidels' as a path to glory; and accepting a not-sought-for death by refusing to renounce what you believe to be true.
Posted by: Shane O. at May 24, 2006 09:15 PM (N6HS/)
51
Oops - SJ. I don't mind if you'd like to delete this post and the first of my previous double-post.
Posted by: Shane O. at May 24, 2006 09:21 PM (N6HS/)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 18, 2006
Emerson's Hidden Enemies
This piece appears in the May 22 print edition of the Western Standard.
There are plenty of rules when it comes to donating to Canadian election campaigns. But what about un-elections? The "Campaign to De-Elect David Emerson" -- a supposedly local effort to force the Vancouver-Kingsway MP to run in a byelection after defecting from the Liberals to the Tories -- has been soliciting donations for lawn signs, buttons and who knows what else. Actually, that no one knows how donations are being spent is just one reason voters might be concerned.
Elections Canada's finance rules are supposed to stop special interest groups from using big spending to promote narrow agendas, by limiting donation sizes and making contributions publicly known -- measures that don't apply to "de-elections." No one knows, in this case, which groups are using money to influence the democratic process, or how.
Industry Minister Emerson has called the agitators "partisan zealots" -- as opposed to any real grassroots movement in the riding. He may be right. When one group hired a plane to fly over Parliament Hill on opening day, trailing a banner reading, "Emerson: Call home!," it published the names of the 250 people who subsidized the stunt (though not their donations). Turns out, there were many special interests involved -- from unionists to anti-war activists to anarchists -- loads of whom don't even live in Emerson's riding. Shouldn't Vancouver-Kingsway residents know which groups are trying to influence their riding's politics -- even in a de-election? Until Elections Canada says so, the best we can do is offer a glimpse of some of the folks who paid for the airplane prank, and the opportunity to bring their own politics to bear on the voters of Vancouver-Kingsway.
Donors |
Probable Agenda |
Dorothy-Jean O'Donnell |
Marxist-Leninist Party candidate from another riding. Purely partisan |
Douglas Gook |
Green Party candidate from another riding. Purely partisan |
Bill Forst |
President of NDP riding association in another riding. Purely partisan |
Linda Wheeler, Catherine Welsh |
Public day-care activists. One less Tory will make it harder for the government to scrap the Liberal program |
Carl Rosenberg, Sheldon Klein, Denise Haskett
|
Pro-Palestinian activists. Angry over Tories' cutting funding to Hamas |
Bryan and Jane Baynham |
Executives with B.C.'s Liberal party. Purely partisan |
Chris Morrisey, Bridget Coll, Jane Bouey |
High-profile gay-rights activists opposed to the Tories' possibly revisiting legalized same-sex marriage |
Kevin Shoesmith, Donna Tanchak, Teresa Gray |
Longtime opponents of 2010 Vancouver Olympics. Hoping Emerson, minister responsible for the games, will go away |
Bev Gilpin, Al Gilpin, Robert Oveson, Les Both
|
Public critics of the U.S. ballistic missile defence shield. Uneasy about Tory party plans to reconsider joining BMD |
Zoe Hunter |
Enviro-activist, daughter of Greenpeace founder Bob Hunter. Unhappy with Tories' neglect of the Kyoto Accord |
- STEVE JANKE
Posted by: Steve Janke at
03:30 PM
| Comments (47)
| Add Comment
Post contains 465 words, total size 4 kb.
1
. . . that no one knows how donations are being spent is just one reason voters might be concerned.
Why? The only people that should be concerned are the people doing the donating, and why is it our responsibility to tell them how to spend their own money?
Elections Canada's finance rules are supposed to stop special interest groups from using big spending to promote narrow agendas, by limiting donation sizes and making contributions publicly known -- measures that don't apply to "de-elections."
These are the same spending rules that you have railed against in the past, right? Show a little backbone and either stand up for the principle that there shouldn't be rules about spending limits, or admit your own partisanship.
Shouldn't Vancouver-Kingsway residents know which groups are trying to influence their riding's politics -- even in a de-election?
Wow! Nanny-statism at its worst. Don't trust the voters to be able to make up their own minds -- the special interest groups are making them up for them, right?
Come on, Angry. If people want to spend their money on a movement to recall Emerson, what is it our business? Why are you defending anti-democratic, nanny-statist spending controls and behaviour modification rules? And why would you use Emerson as the hill to die on -- the guy was elected by virtue of the party he belonged to, and then switched.
Both he, and you, should show a little bit more respect for both the democratic process and for voters.
Posted by: bob at May 18, 2006 04:26 PM (4EUc/)
2
True Investigative Journalism By Angry
When moonbats like these, or when the Polaris Institute publishes it pap, bloggers like Angry do the goog and find out how biased they are, and quiets the noise.
Posted by: Brian Lemon at May 18, 2006 04:44 PM (PjbIr)
3
"If people want to spend their money on a movement to recall Emerson, what is it our business?"
You are absooutely right, bob. Of course, the same thing applies to general elections and byelections, too, doesn't it?
Posted by: DCardno at May 18, 2006 04:54 PM (qN4VR)
4
It looks like a lot of the people named are on the left...just like 80% of the voters in Vancouver-Kingsway. Now I wonder what would get them all riled up?
Posted by: steve d. at May 18, 2006 04:55 PM (sw5R/)
5
You are absooutely right, bob. Of course, the same thing applies to general elections and byelections, too, doesn't it?
You bet it does. But apparently some folks (Angry?) only want to argue against it when it is politically expedient.
Posted by: bob at May 18, 2006 05:42 PM (4EUc/)
6
I also find it amazing that he is characterizing these as "hidden enemies" and that Brian is calling Angry's post "True Investigative Journalism".
As Angry points out, it was the guys who hired the airplane that, themselves, published the donor list.
This is hidden? This took investigation to uncover?
Puh-leeze.
Posted by: bob at May 18, 2006 05:47 PM (4EUc/)
7
bob has a point, Steve.
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 18, 2006 05:48 PM (Rn5Ph)
8
"But apparently some folks (Angry?) only want to argue against it when it is politically expedient"
bob,
Could it be that, even if one disagrees with a particular legislation, we can all agree that there should be a level playing field? Despite what anyone thinks or wants, the liberals put the rules in place regarding election spending. The looney left are circumventing their own laws by acting as a coalition.
steve d,
You may be right about the politics of the majority of V-K constituents (but I sincerely doubt it. I'd be interested in seeing where you get your number from). There may or may not be a byelection in that riding. There will be a federal election sooner or later. Those 80% of which you speak can make their decision whether or not they want representation in the new Conservative government, at that time.
Posted by: Rob R at May 18, 2006 05:54 PM (y9Fs6)
9
Well David Emmerson was right about one thing -- they were partisan zealots. They can spend their money wherever they feel best.
Actually I couldn't care less who funded that particular stunt, however this horse is dead. I didn't like it when Scott Brison and Belinda did it, and I don't like it when Emmerson did it. However, it is not against the rules. It is the rules that have to change. I would suggest you send letters to your MP and get them to do something about it on the hill. Otherwise I guarantee it will happen again. I have sent at least 5 emails to my conservative MP over the last 2 months. Hopefully if it comes to a vote, he will vote the right way. Heck, put the bug in happy Jack's ear -- look how fast he got a debate and vote on troop deployment in Afghanistan!
Posted by: morison at May 18, 2006 06:22 PM (DRtQx)
10
Like many people who are against the Election Canada spending rules, I -- and I imagine Steve is included in this -- simply point out that there is a dual standard being applied. Either Elections Canada should step in and apply the law to these people, or Elections Canada should acknowledge that the law is bunk.
Steve is not the hypocrite in this situation. Steve is only pointing out Elections Canada's hypocrisy via the Western Standard article. I would rather that Elections Canada's rules regarding what I do with my money to be overturned so that I could do whatever I want with my donations. But, if they aren't going to let me do whatever I want, they better be willing to stand up and do the same when other people step on the rules.
Is is hypocritical to point out a double standard? Or is that simply a person asking for fair treatment?
You know the answer Bob and Dawg... don't be petty and obnoxious.
Posted by: Surecure at May 18, 2006 08:16 PM (5xF7M)
11
"But apparently some folks (Angry?) only want to argue against it when it is politically expedient."
Yes - but it's the
other folks who get to call in the RCMP and throw you in the slammer. If you think that the 'de-elect Emerson' campaign is entitled to unlimited funding, then I expect to see you making the same argument for all political campaigns - not just when it is politically expedient
for you
Posted by: Deaner at May 18, 2006 10:28 PM (kc0eB)
12
I'm sorry Steve, let me clarify. You're saying that these people should not be allowed to express their opposition to a politician? Is that your position?
You may disagree with what they're saying, but please defend their right to say it. Whoever they are. Communists, Liberals, Palistinians, Greens, Executives, and anti-Olympians all enjoy the same liberties as you and I.
Posted by: Bowie at May 18, 2006 10:30 PM (YbpZQ)
13
Deaner,
I
did already make that argument, in my response to Dcardno's question. I don't want spending limits anywhere. And neither does Steve (is my guess) -- I just wish he'd apply his own standard all the time.
Surecure. The point of Steve's article was
not to point out that hypocricy -- that would have been a good article though. Alas, at no point does he complain about election spending limits during elections. Instead, he complains that such limits are not being applied
outside elections, and that this is somehow hurting both Emerson and the voters.
Read his last two sentences. Does this sound like someone who doesn't want limits, or someone who wants them expanded? It sure sounds like the latter to me.
Posted by: bob at May 18, 2006 10:46 PM (fnZDj)
14
Bob - while you are certainly right about the democratic process and free speech etc. etc. - Angry is simply bringing forward the facts that many of these "angry constituents" are in fact people who have an axe to grind with the Tory government for one thing or another. This is simply another example of activism.
It would be very interesting to see if the "anger" would have abated if these self-proclaimed "angry - constituents" were not using this matter as a platform to keep their agenda's front page.
Come on Bob - it is soooooo painfully obvious that this a partisan exercise - take off your rose colored glasses and take Angry's post for what it is - bringing forth information that shines a light on this tiresome exercise.
Posted by: Alberta Girl at May 19, 2006 06:40 AM (nMd+I)
15
Geez, for a story the dextro-avian moonbats said had no legs whatsoever, you sure seem to be interested in keeping it running.
Must be something to it after all. Altogether now (singing), "Whatever Lola wants, Lola gets. And little man, little Lola wants you."
Posted by: McQuandary at May 19, 2006 07:28 AM (FAa2V)
16
Angry is simply bringing forward the facts that many of these "angry constituents" are in fact people who have an axe to grind with the Tory government for one thing or another. This is simply another example of activism.
Gosh, to think that people opposed to an undemocratic action that effectively nullifies the franchise are
left-wing! Who knew?
And left-wingers are
activists! I hope Angry and Alberta Girl have had the good sense to alert Homeland Sec...er, CSIS.
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 19, 2006 08:58 AM (Rn5Ph)
17
Oh man, get real.
Steve didn't just publish their "lefty qualifications". Instead, he simultaneously argued--among other things--"... that no one knows how donations are being spent is just one reason voters might be concerned."
Balderdash! It isn't the voters money! It's the doners money -- all of whom
identified themselves. Hardly "hidden activism".
I don't mind Steve complaining that all of these guys are non-riding partisan hacks that should mind their own business. Good on him for doing so. But I'm a bit confused why he thinks that Elections Canada should be stepping in.
He concluded: "Shouldn't Vancouver-Kingsway residents know which groups are trying to influence their riding's politics -- even in a de-election? Until Elections Canada says so, the best we can do . . ."
Get that? He is arguing that Elections Canada should institute rules and regulations on how people should be able to protest
outside of an election. As if it isn't bad enough
during an election. Now he wants us to have to register our names and keep our receipts in order to complain about the government at any time? Is this really what we want? If so, it's a strange breed of conservatism that grows around these parts.
Posted by: bob at May 19, 2006 10:30 AM (4EUc/)
18
The government has rules for everything, including protests.
The groups can protest all they want. They can picket, heckle public appearances, write letters and spam. However when a group raises funds to undertake a mass media political campaign, Elections Canada, has the right to review the group's fund raising and spending... For all we know the ring leaders of this little circus could be granting themselves a salary... Which would be perfectly legal - but it does give them another motive to keep the issue alive.
Posted by: Curtis at May 19, 2006 11:48 AM (heo8b)
19
Actually the de-elect Emerson folks have become more than a joke. Kind of like the WWII Japanese soldiers who hid out in jungles for 20 years refusing to believe that the war was over. Everyone needs a hobby, and if they want to spend their time endlessly lobbying for something that's never going to happen, so be it. Observing their machinations is more entertaining than most TV sit-coms.
Posted by: Bruce at May 19, 2006 12:26 PM (QPPwV)
20
The theme here sounds like the outside agitator complaint gone mad. Nobody is allowed to complain who has an interest, and if they do not, why then they are outside agitators and have no business sticking their nose in..;...
The sobering social fact that the saga of Emerson and other recent party jumpers illustrates is that politics in Canada is being hollowed out. One can see this in the numbers Statscan has produced based on the 2001 census on the distribution of income.
Of the people who file tax returns more than one half have incomes of $23000 or less. The share of that group in total national income has DROPPED between 1990 and 2001 from 19% to 16.9%.
And here is a true blow to the gut: The 10% of tax
filers who had the highest incomes saw their share of national income RISE from 31.7 to 35.7 % lin the same period. And those in between? They lost or stood still.
These numbers are absolutely devastating, given the short period covered. Where the poor are beling plunged deeper into despair, the middle classes are going no where, and the rich are becomeing outright bandits, there is plenty of cause for frustration and rage, but little for constructive political action. You can build or even maintain a democracy on numbers like that.
Posted by: garhane at May 19, 2006 12:50 PM (eKaWT)
21
Error: last sentence should say "You cannot build..."
And the source is a statscan study called "Federal Personal INcome Tax; Slicing the Pie" by Martineau Cat no. 11-621-Mie --no. 024.
Data summary see page 7
Posted by: garhane at May 19, 2006 12:54 PM (eKaWT)
22
BobR
Sooner or later the 80% will get what they voted for in Jan 06? That's a comfort to them I am sure.
Until the Spring of 08 the voters will just have to stuff it. I already know the Emerson plan. If he looks weak and unable to be re-elected he will end up the the Senate.
The 80%is the combined Liberal and NDP vote in Vancouver/Kingsway.
Posted by: steve d. at May 19, 2006 02:26 PM (sw5R/)
23
Iam a statistical anomaly then. My income has gone from 18 000 to 35 000 in the past 2 years.
Iam a crook? because my income nearly doubled?
How about we try this on for size:
People with low incomes, largely have themselves to blame, they didnt attend any post-secondary education, they havent continued to upgrade their skills thru Adult Continuing Education. In short they havent kept pace with the skills that employers demand of the new workforce.
After finishing school it took me 7 years to land my first career related job. During those 7 years, I took every form of crappy dead end job I could find to make ends meet and pay off my useless student loans. Iam really sick and tired of those people who are stuck in the dead end life, blaming the world for their poverty, for their lack of achievement, for basically everything that has gone wrong in their sorry, pointless lives...
So stop whining about the lack of income growth in the low end of the scale, get an education and move up the scale... Dont demand the scale be moved so that your lazy ass can live a middle-class TV-sit-com lifestyle as a short order cook.
Posted by: Curtis at May 19, 2006 03:07 PM (heo8b)
24
Garhane:
Tax filing is complicated by the fact that there are reasons to file a return even when one is not taxable, typically to qualify for means-tested programs or credits, or to establish RRSP room. In addition, individual income is less relevant than household income - a low-income or non-earning person can enjoy a pretty nice life if they are a member of a household with adequate household income.
In another StatsCan study they determined the percentage of households living below the "Low Income Cut-Off" or LICO. The usual caveat applies; LICO is
not a poverty line, since it measures
relative income levels instead of absolute inability to obtain the necessities of life. At the same time, movements in relative indicators are still relevant. Look at http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/060330/d060330a.htm - you'll have to scroll down about half to two-thirds of the page. There are two tables dealing with incidence of 'low income' (I'd paste them, but I am not sure how it would come out...): Low Income Rates by Family Types and Percentage of Persons in Low Income.
Every singe family type showed a decrease in the percentage living below the LICO between 1996 and 2004
every one - Economic families, two persons or more; Senior families; Non-senior couples without children; Two-parent families with children; Female lone-parent families; and Single persons. Similarly, the proportion of people in low income declined - again, across the board. I find it difficult to accept your contention that the poorest in Canada are doing increasingly less well, and in any event, do not believe that this represents "politics being hollowed out" or in any way reflects upon Emerson's decision to cross the floor of the House.
Posted by: DCardno at May 19, 2006 03:59 PM (qN4VR)
25
Sorry - I should clarify one comment above: "Deaner" and "DCardno" are the same person -or at least they were the last time I checked. It was not an attempt to argue by sock puppet; just different "rememebr personal info" cookies on different machines. Apologies to bob (
inter alia perhaps) for any confusion
Posted by: DCardno at May 19, 2006 04:14 PM (qN4VR)
26
If this is the biggest thorn in Harper's side, I am quite happy to sit back and watch. When the Tories win a majority government next time, the Emerson issue will be put to bed.
I laughed when I saw the list of people. You gotta love BC. It's like a cereal, what isn't a fruit or a nut is a flake.
Posted by: jmo at May 19, 2006 04:36 PM (RaK4s)
27
"Does this sound like someone who doesn't want limits, or someone who wants them expanded? It sure sounds like the latter to me."
Give it up Bob. Pointing out that a de-election campaign is as political as an election campaign is not hypocrisy. Pointing out that rules about political campaigns should be applied without exception is not hypocrisy.
It doesn't matter whether he explicitly said that they should apply the rules or cancel them. The point is that the law is not being applied. And thus, a law is broken. One doesn't have to explicitly call something hypocritical for what that person is saying to make that implication.
Did you never take high school English?
Posted by: Surecure at May 20, 2006 11:02 AM (5xF7M)
28
LMAO jmo! I love that line!
Posted by: Surecure at May 20, 2006 11:08 AM (5xF7M)
29
It doesn't matter whether he explicitly said that they should apply the rules or cancel them.
Except that sometimes he says they should cancel them and sometimes he says they should expand them -- depending on when it suits his argument. Not exactly principled.
The point is that the law is not being applied. And thus, a law is broken.
Ummm, what? Which law is being broken exactly? There is no law against protesting the government outside of an election, and nor should there be. Or are you actually advocating increasing the government's control over our democratic rights of free speach? Really?
Did you never take high school English?
Terrific argument. I'm not sure how it applies to anything that is being discussed, but at least it made me laugh.
Posted by: Bob at May 20, 2006 01:39 PM (fnZDj)
30
Amazing how the advocates for "less government" want more and more of it when the government is acting for them. Today, a "recall Emerson" campaign should be subject to regulation; tomorrow, allow protest only if its licensed. What's next? A firearms registry?
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 20, 2006 01:49 PM (Rn5Ph)
31
Er...that's "it's." Must be my lack of high school English.
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 20, 2006 02:12 PM (Rn5Ph)
32
Steved: 80% is not the combined Liberal/NDP vote in Vancouver-Kingsway; you must be adding Green votes as well. I get your point, though: you're claiming that everyone who voted for Emerson really meant to vote for a generic 'leftist candidate' instead, and is 'all riled up' that the candidate he actually voted for is a Conservative cabinet minister instead. It's not enough for you to claim that you do know these voters' minds and can speak for them; there's also a requirement on you to support a claim like that, for it to be believable.
bob: The Campaign to De-Elect Emerson has not identified its membership or the source of its funding. The group that disclosed that information was Manuel Pereda's breakaway faction Message in the Air - it's plausible that the same people are funding both groups, but that's only an inference as no one knows who's funding Mike Watkins' CDEE.
Dr. Dawg: You spoke of 'an undemocratic action that effectively nullifies the franchise'. Yet it seems that you are one of those calling for the Member of Parliament who was just elected to be thrown out and his seat be declared vacant pending a new election. How in the hell can you see that recommended course of action as anything but 'an undemocratic action that effectively nullifies the franchise"?
Posted by: George Dance at May 20, 2006 02:38 PM (V8DQH)
33
Steved: 80% is not the combined Liberal/NDP vote in Vancouver-Kingsway; you must be adding Green votes as well. I get your point, though: you're claiming that everyone who voted for Emerson really meant to vote for a generic 'leftist candidate' instead, and is 'all riled up' that the candidate he actually voted for is a Conservative cabinet minister instead. It's not enough for you to claim that you do know these voters' minds and can speak for them; there's also a requirement on you to support a claim like that, for it to be believable.
bob: The Campaign to De-Elect Emerson has not identified its membership or the source of its funding. The group that disclosed that information was Manuel Pereda's breakaway faction Message in the Air - it's plausible that the same people are funding both groups, but that's only an inference as no one knows who's funding Mike Watkins' CDEE.
Dr. Dawg: You spoke of 'an undemocratic action that effectively nullifies the franchise'. Yet it seems that you are one of those calling for the Member of Parliament who was just elected to be thrown out and his seat be declared vacant pending a new election. How in the hell can you see that recommended course of action as anything but 'an undemocratic action that effectively nullifies the franchise"?
http://tinyurl.com/huyld
Posted by: George Dance at May 20, 2006 02:38 PM (V8DQH)
34
GeorgeDance
I don't claim to know the voters minds. I do know they elected a Liberal. I think it is safe to say they expected Emerson to remain a Liberal. I do know that the riding has never voted Conservative. Although I cannot predict with absolute certainty that voters will opt for the Liberal or NDP candidate next time I would be bold enough to say it is likely.
Posted by: steve d. at May 20, 2006 03:05 PM (sw5R/)
35
Dr. Dawg: You spoke of 'an undemocratic action that effectively nullifies the franchise'. Yet it seems that you are one of those calling for the Member of Parliament who was just elected to be thrown out and his seat be declared vacant pending a new election. How in the hell can you see that recommended course of action as anything but 'an undemocratic action that effectively nullifies the franchise"?
I assume you're serious, so let me note first of all that most people vote for the party, not the individual,* in Canadian elections. Suppose your man or woman, on getting elected, decided to sit with the party you'd just voted against before Parliament had even reconvened? NOW do you get it?
*Source: http://www.elections.ca/eca/eim/article_search/article.asp?id=123〈=e&frmPageSize=&textonly=false
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 20, 2006 03:58 PM (Rn5Ph)
36
Well one thing is certain: Emerson couldn't panhandle sucessfully in Vancouver-Kingsway let alone "win" another election.
Hard to say where in BC he could win a seat, even if he runs openly as a Tory this time.
It may turn out the way a poster above said, and Harper will just appoint him to Cabinet.
As a member of the loose-knit "De-Elect Emerson campaign" I can assure you that any money that is collected is freely given by people of all walks of life and many different ridings all across Canada for the purpose of trying to bring democracy back to V-K. People buy the buttons and lawn signs, and take the time to send our pre-printed postcards to their MP's and to Mssrs Emerson and Harper. Even some Conservative voters have given their support, which says a lot about how much damage Emerson and Harper did to democracy in V-K.
We won't quit. Though we may not win the battle to hold Harper and Emerson accountable for the pillaging of democracy in Vancouver-Kingsway, we will keep fighting. Anything less, and we all might as well roll over and let Harper, Emerson et al select who they want to "govern" Canada.
Steadfastly,
Locusta emersonia
Posted by: Locusta emersonia at May 20, 2006 04:03 PM (nnihx)
37
Steve d.
Wrong, the voters in V-K elected Emmerson to represent them, not a Liberal, not a NDP, nor a Consvative. That is the way our federal parliamentry system is suppose to work. That is way floor crossing should never be eliminated.
The fact that you and the de-elect Emerson campaign do not understan this fundamental of Canadian politics is typical.
The system needs to be reformed to break the power of the party.
Posted by: dkjones at May 20, 2006 11:19 PM (CZIJU)
38
It's amazing... you guys simply don't have the competency to understand. Well, I guess there are some people who just can't add 2 plus 2 without getting 22.
I'll leave you to your little world.
Posted by: Surecure at May 20, 2006 11:46 PM (5xF7M)
39
I also wonder where all the money went that was collected for lawn signs----because---I drive through that constituency almost daily and so far have seen ONE lawn sign.
So where does all the money go?
Horny Toad
Posted by: Horny Toad at May 21, 2006 02:29 AM (vntGg)
40
Oh, don't have any concern over that Horny Toad. As bob and Dawg like to point out, this isn't an issue of tracking political donations to see where the money goes.
Posted by: Surecure at May 21, 2006 08:23 AM (5xF7M)
41
dkjones
I am all for breaking the power of the party. I understand that crossing the floor is also part of the game. However, like most other unfortunate occurences you never expect it will happen to you. When a voter enter the voting booth he doesn't think about whether or not their man is going to cross the floor or become corrupt, or any number of other negatives. They enter the voting booth in hope and good faith that the person is going to stand for the things he said he stood for. In this case Emerson said he stood for Liberal beliefs against Conservative beliefs. There is no getting away from that fact. To say a man had a change of beliefs a week after the election is laughable. To say he is a political opportunist would be more correct. Should we be electing opportunists or men of principle?
Posted by: steve d. at May 21, 2006 11:21 AM (sw5R/)
42
It's amazing... you guys simply don't have the competency to understand. Well, I guess there are some people who just can't add 2 plus 2 without getting 22.
Wow! Another terrific argument. You're on fire in this thread.
Help me understand. You claim that a law has been broken, but you can't seem point to any such law. Failing that, you seem to believe that
if a law preventing unregistered, unlimited, political demonstrations by private citizens using their own money
outside of elections doesn't exist, it ought to -- despite the fact that you, yourself, don't like the law that prevents such spending
during elections.
I guess you're right, I
am confused.
Posted by: bob at May 22, 2006 12:46 PM (fnZDj)
43
Hats off to you, bob. There's really nothing much left to say. Game, set and match.
Posted by: Dr.Dawg at May 22, 2006 05:43 PM (Rn5Ph)
44
"Suppose your man or woman, on getting elected, decided to sit with the party you'd just voted against before Parliament had even reconvened? NOW do you get it?"
Not all of it, Dawg. I can get that I'd probably be upset, and I get that some people in Van-King (some of whom voted for Emerson) are upset with his party switch; almost 1000 have been upset enough to do something like join a protest or put up a free lawn sign; a couple have been upset enough to vandalize Emerson's office. That's not news; some voters get upset whenever this type of thing happens.
What I don't get is your conclusion that, because these people are upset, that somehow makes Emerson's actions (unlike those of every MP who's done the same thing) undemocratic - and that therefore tossing the MP out of office, throwing out the votes of everyone who elected him, suddenly becomes the democratic thing to do.
Posted by: George Dance at May 23, 2006 06:21 AM (vJoqB)
45
Everybody who voted for Emerson knew that as an MP he would have the right to cross the floor, and might do it. Just like any other successful candidate.
Posted by: ebt at May 23, 2006 01:36 PM (7y2db)
46
Shopping for cheap jerseys? Our top reviewed site shows you the power of a comparison search engine. Save money and find discounts on top brands, or products. Can't decide what you want? Dig in a little, read product specs & reviews Cheap nfl jerseys ★★★★★cheap jerseys, nfl jerseys cheap free shipping and fast delivery.Shopping now!
Posted by: Jaguars jersey Cheap at November 29, 2012 10:31 AM (wmdzq)
Posted by: outlet at December 19, 2012 10:14 AM (cSvSl)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Gun registry successfully kept guns out of the United States
The people for and against the long-gun registry have been tossing allegations back and forth about how effective the registry has been in fighting crime. Often this takes the form of statistics. For: An average of 5,000 queries a day are made by law enforcement agencies. Against: Virtually all the queries are automatically generated by local police computers whenever any kind of information is accessed, including outstanding parking fines.
The problem is that it is hard to really understand how useful the registry is when you look at broad collections of numbers.
So I decided to focus on one particular event, chosen at random, described by the Coalition for Gun Control:
In May 2000, the firearm registry played a pivotal role in uncovering what is alleged to be one of the largest and most sophisticated firearm smuggling rings in North America. Likely destined for the black market, nearly 23,000 firearms and their components were seized.
Wow, 23,000 firearms kept off of Canadian streets! That is impressive.
Well, the truth is more complicated, as it always is.
more...
Posted by: Steve Janke at
11:49 AM
| Comments (6)
| Add Comment
Post contains 1328 words, total size 9 kb.
1
Keystone Kops? Arrest people obeying the law to justify the registry? It was, after all, the Liberal spin that was most important with the Registry--results were not important--it was the process.
Posted by: George at May 18, 2006 12:12 PM (OsUsf)
2
Wow - good information.
I wonder how much data is available on the Harm done to Law Abiding Canadians through the imposition of the laws and the abuse of registry information.
Like - legal gun related business forced to close because of disruption to their business.
Or - Gunshops / Gunsmiths falsely charged under the acts and private property confiscated by overzealous police.
Or- Ordinary citizens abused in similar fashion.
Any thoughts?
Posted by: PGP at May 18, 2006 02:29 PM (iv01O)
3
Damn Steve, forget the blog. You should write a book for how good your investigative resources are. Why not assemble all of this into a book on the gun registry and the political posturing involved? With all the interest right now you could make a pretty penny and get some much needed exposure.
I even have a title for ya...
Sites Set on Stupid: How the Liberal Government used the Gun Registry to Hoodwink Canada
Posted by: Surecure at May 18, 2006 03:47 PM (+tET0)
4
Have you come across any stats on the number of registered long-guns used in crimes, versus the number of unregistered?
Posted by: Paul O at May 18, 2006 07:54 PM (jfVa7)
5
If you should undertake this mission Steve, make the rounds of the major gun shops and you'll get tons of info. on the financial havoc these swine have caused Canadian Citizens to support this Liberal Feather The Nest rip off. Anyone that does not see this as a major retirement scheme for that criminal orginazation, the Liberal Party of Canada, then just wait 'till the 3500 phoney contracts are made public.
Now that the registry info. is in the hands of the criminal element, any collector with major value in his collection (if he registed them) has serious worries.
Damn Liebral swine anyway!!
Posted by: Pat at May 20, 2006 02:20 PM (bxOjK)
6
Considering the huge gang sweep in Rexdale (Toronto) this past week, I would really be curious to know how the gun registry played a role in the operation? Was it even used once for the houses the cops entered?
I seriously doubt it.
Posted by: Surecure at May 21, 2006 11:19 AM (5xF7M)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Disrespect in the Soo
A tragedy in Sault Ste. Marie, the death of Constable Don Doucet in a traffic accident involving a drunk driver, is being used by one labour union as a springboard for media attention:
The Canadian Union of Public Employees has chosen tomorrow, a day on which MPP David Orazietti and hundreds of other Saultites will mourn the death of Constable Don Doucet, to picket outside Orazietti's office.
Gilles Bouffard of CUPE's Ontario regional office in Scarborough advised SooToday.com this afternoon that CUPE-represented long-term care workers from the Davey Home will hold an information picket starting at 3:30 p.m. tomorrow outside Orazietti's office, protesting recent cutbacks at the home and a lack of adequate provincial funding for long-term care services in Ontario.
So what has the local paper, SooToday, decided to do? Will it provide the union the attention it so desperately wants?
SooToday.com News has informed Bouffard that we will be boycotting tomorrow's event out of respect for Constable Doucet's family, friends and the hundreds of grieving peace officers who are travelling to our community from across North America for tomorrow's funeral mass at the Sault Armoury.
A local resident pointed me towards this story, and tells me people are very upset with the union leadership:
[This] story has certainly made me and many other residents of my
community angry.
Members of CUPE are going to be picketing our local MPP's office tommorow
because Premiere McGuinty is going to be in town.
What is making people angry is that McGuinty is in town to honor a police
officer, Constable Don Doucet, who was killed in the line of duty by a drunk
driver.
Here's hoping that anger does not boil over. The only thing that could make this situation worse is a confrontation.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
12:06 AM
| Comments (4)
| Add Comment
Post contains 300 words, total size 2 kb.
1
Unbelievable. Having just gone through the same thing here in Windsor, I can understand people's anger. Save the grandstanding for another day and let the community honour one of it's own.
Posted by: BBS at May 18, 2006 02:19 AM (pnI9x)
2
I don't find it surprising at all that CUPE members would sink to such a level. They have demonstrated many times that they only think about themselves.
I wonder if Bouffard got his tactical training from Sid Ryan?
Posted by: Ron at May 18, 2006 08:10 AM (DMNja)
3
Kudos to the paper for telling them point blank beforehand that they will not report the protest. They deserve credit when they get it right.
Posted by: phil at May 18, 2006 10:39 PM (Lvekz)
4
In the end CUPE wised up and decided to cancel this information picket.
Posted by: Ryan at May 20, 2006 03:10 PM (XMJyp)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 17, 2006
Where leaders lead...
Where leaders lead, others follow:
Canadian troops will spend two extra years fighting to bring democracy and security to Afghanistan’s most perilous corner after Prime Minister Stephen Harper won a tense political showdown over his divided opposition rivals.
A motion to extend the deployment barely passed 149 to 145 Wednesday night. The NDP, Bloc Quebecois and most Liberals, including key leadership candidates such as Stephane Dion, Ken Dryden and Joe Volpe, voted against it.
Other leadership candidates, Michael Ignatieff and Scott Brison, voted for the longer commitment in perilous Afghanistan, as did interim Liberal leader Bill Graham.
Former prime minister Paul Martin was absent.
Put aside, for a brief moment, the strategic issues of Canadians holding off the Taliban, and by extension, Al Qaeda (Canada as a target for terrorists, our relationship with the US, etc, etc) and consider the political implications.
Stephen Harper and the Conservatives in a weak minority situation put forward a motion that is roundly opposed by all three opposition parties on a topic that for many Canadians represents the deepest held misgivings about where post-9/11 Canada is going...and Stephen Harper wins!
The vote is a political victory for Harper, who can characterize the result as an indication of the will of Parliament, while exposing divisions within the Liberal ranks.
Coming out of the House, Harper took a few shots at the opposition.
“I think the truth of the matter is support for the mission is a lot stronger than the vote,” Harper said. “There were a lot of people in there who just wanted to vote against the government. But certain Liberals took a principled position and Canada is much better for it.”
For the Liberals, a split is forming. Michael Ignatieff and Scott Brison for the extension. Ken Dryden, Joe Volpe, Stephane Dion, Hedy Fry against. With the Conservatives achieving another parliamentary victory, there will be bitter recriminations lobbed during the Liberal leadership race. The party itself will crack violently along this fault line, and it's anyone guess what will be the end result. Meanwhile, any "Unite-the-Left" push to merge the Liberals and the NDP will be shelved until the Liberals sort this out. The NDP will not easily forgive the Liberal Party for allowing a free vote for the Liberal caucus.
For the Canadian left in general, a panic will start. If Stephen Harper can win this vote, what other votes can he win? Joining the US in developing a ballistic missile defense system? Redefining marriage as a heterosexuals-only institution? Property rights? For the left, there has been an assumption that Stephen Harper would be hobbled in a minority government. Bide their time, and at the next election in a year or so, the left would win again. The Conservatives could do little lasting damage -- lower taxes a modest amount, for example, which would be hard to increase, but most things could be rolled back. Instead, to the horror of the left, who have assumed that though they lost the election they still ruled the country, Stephen Harper is succeeding at far more substantive and transformative changes, and might continue to do so.
For the Conservatives, more headlines tomorrow about another parliamentary win. More comparisons of the accomplishments of Stephen Harper versus the ineffectual run of Paul Martin as prime minister. And the hard work of making sure this new commitment in Afghanistan is a success. But if anyone can make this work, this government can.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
11:29 PM
| Comments (15)
| Add Comment
Post contains 580 words, total size 4 kb.
1
Noticable by his absence, where was ex-PM Paul Martin for this vote tonight? Could it be that the Guite trial is having repercussions in the back rooms of the Liberal party? As the Finance Minister during the period in question he and Chretien should be brought to account.
Posted by: Antenor at May 18, 2006 12:09 AM (Wd07a)
2
Downtown Jack was a particularly annoying speed bump on the highway of life but then what can you expect from him.
Enjoyed the statement by Mr. Harper about Duceppe making a mistake and that Quebecers wanted leadership to make them proud in both french and english. Gotta like it.
Martin not being there...so what's new. If he had of been there he would have dithered anyway. I can see why he stayed away, he would have had to make a decision. Can't have that.
Posted by: Pat at May 18, 2006 01:03 AM (bxOjK)
3
You are quite out to lunch on your take on the debate today.
Nothing was solved.
Harper said he couldn't care less about the vote, he'd do things his way regardless.
So, he divided the country.
Canada means nothing to him but a stepping stone to greater glories. He'll do to/with Canada as he pleases as long as he can.
Today, he got shown that he has divided the country almost 50/50. He's probably celebrating, though Canada is not.
Today, people were told that they can and should disobey the standing law of the land, and forget about registering their long guns. Harper jumped the gun on this, and he jumped the gun on his pretend-vote.
Reality is gonna hurt him, unless Bush comes to his rescue.
How many times has Canada needed America to bolster its sovereignty? Hasn't it been the other way 'round?
We're like poor cousins; we're still family, and we're still okay... as long as we go along with big daddy and dubya. Shee-it!
My mixed blood cheers Duceppe. He had the best reasons for opposing Harper's parlour game, but will get the least respect.
Still, there is 46% of Canadians who will oppose, and after hockey season, likely more.
Canada will not be played for a fool, no matter how stupid Harper thinks the average Canadian is.
Posted by: Ionno at May 18, 2006 02:34 AM (nnihx)
4
Ionno, written like a true fiberal. The long gun registry is 1 billion dollars over budget. There was obvious fraud by the fiberals. Someone should go to jail.
The country is les dividd than you think. If we had your attitude in WWII, you would be in some German concentration camp.
Posted by: Roy Eappen at May 18, 2006 02:48 AM (x9M4y)
5
Do you think Paulie's constuents care if he represents them or not? It seems he has been more absent than present.
Posted by: morison at May 18, 2006 07:02 AM (DRtQx)
6
Even as another one of our Military is killed, the Liberals play politics--shame. Is nothing but stolen money holy to these criminals? Much as I disagree with the deployment to Afghanistan, the CPC voted on moral and ethical grounds--the Liberals played with numbers for their own gain. Despicable
Posted by: George at May 18, 2006 08:43 AM (OsUsf)
7
Ionno....
"Canada will not be played for a fool".
Are you sure?
They were for the entire reign of the Liberal. Everything from misleading surplus forcasts all the way to the gun registry proves that.
And I will disagree with "Nothing was solved". Sure there was. We have another 2 years doing our country proud overseas as we route the Taliban from their left-supported foxholes as well as seeing a rip form in the Liberal party.
It was a GREAT day.
Posted by: Ownshook at May 18, 2006 09:05 AM (koeZf)
8
I love how the lefties like to say they don't want the US influencing our political decisions, and then they are the only people obsessed enough about the US to bring them into EVERYTHING.
Notice how Ionno had to bring Bush into this? And why? Because he has no traction. A person with traction in an argument doesn't need to bring the "boogeyman" into the equation.
Ionno... if you ever feel like making a real statement based on facts and reality instead of paranoia and Anti-Americanism, please feel free to come back. The rest of us will point out what is really going on and will focus on Canada (what a concept!) which is what you might want to try out sometime.
Truthfully, when even the Toronto Star is coming out and calling this a victory for Harper, you gotta know it is. But, just like many lefties, you will keep on walking around muttering, "the sky is falling," and hoping that somebody is listening.
As for Canada... considering the polls, you know that those Canadians who are not tied to any party are starting to see that Harper is 10 times the Prime Minister that Paul Martin ever could be. After all, only 100 days in office and Harper has already surpassed what Martin did in 2 years.
And THAT is reality.
Posted by: Surecure at May 18, 2006 09:26 AM (+tET0)
9
For the past number of years I have despaired at the direction that this once great country was taking in world affairs. The MSM, press, radio, and television have learned well at the footstool of Dr. Goebbels, "Tell something often enough and it becomes the truth". Ionno is one of the many examples of this process, we have been running this country into oblivion by the leadership of the liberals for the better part of 50 years. We have two generations that have grown up under the banner of the 'Red' Maple Leaf flag. We have begun to see the collapse of institutions that all Canadians once held dear, Health care, Education, National police force, and a strong Military. After decades of corruption, theft, negligence etc. etc. we have finally found a leader that still retains some of the virtues that helped create this country. I am thankful that we have this venue and others on the internet that hasn't been corrupted. From the comments above I can now say that there is hope, I am not alone in my line of thinking. Fortunately the Halifaxes, and Chamberlains of today, (Layton and Duceppe) cannot control this media. The climate of politican unrest in Iraq and Afghanistan today so closely resembles the Germany of the twenties that it is unthinkable that leaders of the opposition parties could counsel a withdrawl of troops. Under Harper's leadership and through the internet we can all make a difference. I urge all of you reading this to keep up the dialogue and the intelligent discussion until the majority of Canadians learn that they have been led down the garden path by Liberals and NDP alike. There are issues that we all hold dear, truth and freedom. Despite the lies and restrictions that have been foisted upon us in the last few decades these principals are once again coming to the surface, they will always come to the surface for without them, what are we doing here?
Posted by: Antenor at May 18, 2006 11:11 AM (Wd07a)
10
Another reason that I'm glad I voted for PM Harper.
Look the lefties in the eye and they blink, every time.
MCpl (Ret'd) J Keane
Posted by: JasonK at May 18, 2006 12:08 PM (e5rfi)
11
"You've seen what Stephen Harper has done. And you've seen how much he's tried to do. And how he's been frustrated by a Parliament with a majority that does not speak for Canadians. It's time to change that. On [insert date here], vote to let an honest government govern. Vote Conservative."
Of course, that's why I don't work in advertising, but you see my point.
Posted by: ebt at May 18, 2006 03:45 PM (7y2db)
12
Somewhere along the 401 on my way to Toronto I am greeted by a most beautiful sight. A large Canadian flag flapping in the breeze peacefully. I have watched in dismay as this country has been torn by almost criminal politics, yellow journalism, and a false vision of democracy in a socialistic state. I actually cheered when Harper and the CPC wrenched the government away from the Liberals.
Ionno, you are so wrong. This vote was a great victory for Harper. The Isolationist position that Martin and the Libs were moving is wrong headed. Maybe some Americans do see Canadians as poor cousins, but not all. Many see them as their friends and allies. Different, yet similar.
If you look in the U.S., the left is trying unsuccessfully to do what Ionno is trying to do. Proclaim doom and gloom and a horrible foreboding of evil because (gasp!) the Conservatives have taken over. MY GOD! Get over it. Stop being the problem and start looking for answers to problems. That is what the Libs forgot, and why they lost, Ionno, not because Harper is some scuzzy politician who took advantage of a silly mistake. The scuzziness was all Liberal. They caused the their own problems and forgot the people. The election proved it.
Canada is great and could be greater still, but it must decide to do so. That decision is yours to make, not mine. That flag I talked about is on my way to see family that emmigrated to Canada. While I follow your story, I also have my own decisions to make.
Posted by: cincimaddog at May 18, 2006 05:07 PM (MOtox)
13
It's becoming very apparent that Ken Dryden should be with the NDP.
Posted by: Frank Mench at May 18, 2006 05:10 PM (aHGpv)
14
No - Dryden should still be with the Leafs.
Posted by: Deaner at May 18, 2006 10:31 PM (kc0eB)
15
Steve Janke, your second-to-last concluding paragraph is very interesting and encouraging. Given the Liberal leadership race (how long till that is settled?), what other issues do you think will come to a vote and for which the Liberal caucus (if not the cacuses of other parties) will be freed for votes of conscience rather than votes of party line?
Do you think that the issue of marriage is a prime prospect for a free vote amongst Liberals as well as Conservatives? How do you think that might play in Quebec where the Bloc have taken the SSM side en bloc?
When C-32 was held to a final vote last summer, the No side included about half of the ordinary Liberal MPs (excluding Cabinet members and secretaries). If the current elected Liberal MPs are free to vote like ordinary MPs (which I am guessing they will be) and the party remains in a leadership race, what are the chances -- good and bad -- of the vote to revist the marriage issue actually winning a majority in the House?
Posted by: F. Rottles at May 19, 2006 12:50 PM (jcZ2c)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
Irwin Cotler in the third person
From the Toronto Sun, on the release of the auditor general's report on the long-gun registry:
Liberal MP Irwin Cotler denied the Liberals deliberately tried to hide money.
Well, the accusation in the auditor general's is far more specific than just "the Liberals".
Here are some choice quotes from the report itself (my emphasis added):
We examined the progress made in the management of the Canadian Firearms Program since 2002, when we reported that we were unable to complete our audit of the cost of implementing the program. We said the financial information was unreliable and did not fairly present the net costs of the program. We also reported that the Department of Justice was not giving Parliament enough information to allow for effective scrutiny of the program or to explain the dramatic increase in its costs. We made only one recommendation in 2002: The Department of Justice should rectify these gaps in financial reporting.
4.1 In 1995, Parliament passed the Firearms Act and amendments to the Criminal Code to establish the Canadian Firearms Program under the principal responsibility of the Department of Justice Canada.
4.4 In our December 2002 Report, Chapter 10, we examined the costs of implementing the Canadian Firearms Program. We stopped the audit of the program's financial information because the data was unreliable, and we reported that the Department of Justice had not fairly presented the net cost of the program. We also reported that the Department had not provided Parliament with enough information to allow for effective scrutiny of the program or to explain the dramatic increase in its costs.
4.12 In December 2002, the Department of Justice had requested Parliament's approval for Supplementary Estimates to bring the Centre's 2002-03 planned spending to $113.5 million. Parliament at first would not approve the Supplementary Estimates as presented, but in March 2003 it agreed to do so based on the Minister's commitment that the Centre's spending for 2002-03 would not exceed $100.2 million.
4.13 The first accounting error. The Department later reported the Centre's actual spending for 2002-03 at $78.3 million . However, this amount did not include the estimated $39 million in CFIS II development costs incurred that year.
4.14 In our opinion, in leaving the $39 million unrecorded the Department of Justice did not comply with the Treasury Board's Policy on Payables at Year-End (PAYE). This policy states that costs for large system development are to be recorded as expenditures against a departmental appropriation in the year when they are incurred, rather than when they become due and payable under a contract. Furthermore, had the Department of Justice recorded this amount in its 2002-03 expenditures, while its total spending would have remained within its voted appropriation, the Centre's actual spending would have been $117.3 million, $17.1 million over the limit to which the Minister had committed.
The first audit was delivered in December of 2002. Martin Cauchon was Minister of Justice. He would be minister for one more year -- in December 2003 he was tossed out of cabinet as part of the purge of Chretienites when Paul Martin took over the leadership of the Liberal Party. The new minister was responsible for following through on the issues raised by the audit. Martin Cauchon's successor was minister from December 12, 2003 until February 5, 2006, when Conservative Vic Toews took over the ministry.
Just over two years.
And what a busy two years!
That minister promised to parliament in March 2003 that the Centre would not spend more than $100.2 million. That minister later reported to parliament that the spending was actually $78.3 million, and pulled this trick off by shuffling $39 million to the following year.
Of course, you would think that 2004 would now be a problem. But not for this minister.
In January 2004, that minister selectively recorded costs to keep the expenditures below the promised levels. At first, the Treasury Board Secretariat (that arm of Treasury Board responsible for accountability of ethics) required those costs to be reported as part of the Centre's expenditures, but "subsequent consultations" convinced the Secretariat to approve taking $21.8 million off the books altogether, hiding the money in the consolidated Accounts of Canada, instead of in the Centre's budget.
The name of this minister of justice? Irwin Cotler, of course.
So when Irwin Cotler insists that "the Liberals" were not deliberately hiding the money, he really means he was not deliberately hiding the money. What a modest guy.
In a way, Cotler did not hide the money. The extra expenditures were subsequently reported. But only after it was too late to do anything about it.
The subtle difference between that and hiding the money is lost on me. Maybe Irwin Cotler can explain it in detail while sitting in a witness box at a board of inquiry.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
08:53 PM
| Comments (7)
| Add Comment
Post contains 813 words, total size 6 kb.
1
Cotler is a master at misinformation. He will argue a point to death while not once addressing the main issue. He can slither his way around any issue using the semantics he is famous for. He is the consumate Liberal slime we have come to know and despise.
Posted by: George at May 17, 2006 10:07 PM (u27Hf)
2
Please tell the court, Mr. Cotler, what exactly does the number of angels who can dance on the head of a pin have to do with government accounting practises?
Posted by: Mac at May 17, 2006 10:23 PM (TaDbz)
3
Sorry, off topic but we won!!!
The troop deployment to Afghanistan is extended for 2 years by a vote of 149-145. Graham and 29 other Liberals showed some backbone and voted to support the motion.
Personally I think they were more worried about the embarrassment that the Liberal party would suffer if the motion was defeated.
Gerry
Posted by: gerry at May 17, 2006 10:26 PM (e+lSi)
4
Off topic -- hoo hoo
On Topic -- liar liar, pants on fire. Twit. Irwin Cotler deserves jail time beside his pals in the LPC.
Posted by: morison at May 17, 2006 10:50 PM (DRtQx)
5
I believe it boils down to the old Paul Martin question. Was Colter incompetent or was he crooked?
Posted by: phil at May 17, 2006 10:55 PM (Lvekz)
6
Colter's in for a rough ride. Heard there was a new Sheriff in town. Seems to me that there's quite a few of 'em that are worried right about now.
Pat
Posted by: Pat at May 18, 2006 01:54 AM (bxOjK)
7
One memorable....memory from the last federal campaign was watching Irwin Cotler claim, on Newsworld, that the CPC "stole" their law and order platform from the Liberals. And he repeated the claim! Now, I live in Ontario and know from big lies (hello, Dalton), but Irwin Cotler stands out as the most shameless bald face liar I've ever seen in public life. It's like he thinks Canadians are children and will believe any lie, no matter how implausible.
Posted by: Henry at May 18, 2006 04:18 PM (4K9Oe)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 16, 2006
Where will the votes come from?
The long-gun registry has always been a target of the Conservatives, who apparently are going to try to kill it now, in this minority government:
According to CTV News, the Tories will start taking action to dismantle that registry as early as today.
CTV reported last night that Public Safety Minister Stockwell Day is expected to announce an amnesty for rifle and shotgun owners. That would mean the registry would only apply to handguns and semi-automatic weapons.
CTV also reported the responsibility for the registry will be transferred to the RCMP from the Canada Firearms Centre.
But all three opposition parties, the Liberals (who created this boondoggle), the NDP (which has become essentially an urban-only party, so has little reason to care about rural sensibilities when it comes to rifles and shotguns), and the Bloc Quebecois (which shares similar sensibilities with the NDP when it comes to social issues), are all against dismantling the registry:
But the minority Conservative government can expect a rough ride.
The Conservatives face three opposition parties in Parliament that all support gun control and have said they will oppose moves to scrap it.
The registry has been a financial and managerial nightmare from its inception:
[Auditor General Sheila Fraser's] report today is coming more than three years after she dropped a bombshell audit that detailed a nearly $1 billion cost overrun in the gun control program, and criticized the Liberal government for not bringing the ballooning budget to Parliament's attention.
The Canada Firearms Centre, which administers the program, operates on a budget of roughly $83 million a year. Of that amount, supporters say, just $10 million to $15 million goes to the costs of the long-gun registry, which covers rifles and shotguns.
That report, apparently, is what the Tories will use to win any vote on altering the registry:
Yesterday, Saskatchewan MP Garry Breitkreuz, the Conservatives' critic of the gun control program, said that armed with the second report, the Tories may get enough votes in Parliament to act.
"I hope it will be a wakeup call for the other parties, that this firearms issue is not going away, that it's still a black hole of a money pit," said Breitkreuz (Yorkton-Melville).
Where are these votes going to come from? I don't see any opposition party voting with the Conservatives on this. I might be wrong, but let's assume I'm right. That leaves two possibilities. Despite the phrasing of the report, that the Tories would "get enough votes" to support changes to the registry, in truth it means that the opposition parties, unwilling to risk prompting an election (though I doubt this would be a vote of confidence), would simply arrange for enough members to be absent from the House when the vote comes.
Or the report means what it says -- some Liberal, NDP, or BQ MPs will vote against their party in support of a Conservative motion to alter the gun registry. Liberals, most likely. That is a huge thing. Besides bucking party unity, which is always remarkable, it would have considerable impact on the Liberal leadership race. Any Liberal MPs who vote against the party would then be in a position to argue that a new Liberal Party needs to face up with the policy failures of the past, including the much criticized gun registry. That would throw down the gauntlet for other Liberals, in particular those vying for the leadership, to defend the financial and managerial nightmare left behind by the Liberal Party, or to join in criticizing this foundation stone of Liberal Party policy. It would also draw a line between Liberals continuing to support the Chretien-Martin legacy, and those willing to jettison that legacy.
Is this why the Conservatives are pushing on the registry? One of the five priorities is a new emphasis on law and order. Certainly the gun registry is part of this priority, but given how controversial the registry is, the Conservatives could be forgiven for pulling on other threads in the law and order tapestry until they win a majority government. But it might be that the Conservative strategists have deduced that dealing with gun registry now is likely to result in political dividends as well as policy ones.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
11:08 AM
| Comments (31)
| Add Comment
Post contains 712 words, total size 5 kb.
1
I'd say taking a principled stand to do away with this disgraceful attempted first step towards confiscation is worthwhile whether it succeeds or not.
Posted by: Bill at May 16, 2006 12:10 PM (2zS60)
2
I have never seen such acrimony between the Libs & the Reds (NDP) in Parliament as now, due no doubt to Smilin' Jack's assumption that his only hope to pick up more seats next election is to ridicule the disorganized, disarrayed & depressed Libs.
Result is that PMSH can expect to gain support from the Libs even if he were to propose a law to make eating fried babies on toast perfectly legal.
Posted by: Alienated at May 16, 2006 12:11 PM (MYChe)
3
Let's see...guns primary utility is to kill. Governments' primary imperative is public safety. Nope, no public interest in tracking firearms ownership here.
Posted by: joebaloni at May 16, 2006 12:41 PM (io41g)
4
God, joe, I never looked at it that way! But of course, all killing threatens public safety. Ducks. Moose. Gophers. Harm a hair of any of 'em and we're all at risk.
Hey, did you know you can buy stuff at the grocery store which KILLS GERMS? I feel unsafe already.
Posted by: ebt at May 16, 2006 01:36 PM (7y2db)
5
Let's see...murderers primary utility is to kill. Liberals' primary imperative is banning an inanimate tool the murderer uses. Nope, no Liberal interest in confiscation here.
Posted by: Dennis at May 16, 2006 01:38 PM (17sjr)
6
http://www.theinfozone.net/SALW/Canada.html
The gun registries greatest supporter is Wendy Cukier, who has received almost half a million dollars from the former Liberal government.
What is amazing is that the original promise that the program would only cost $2 million is so out distanced by the paid cheerleader, Cukier receiving 25% of that amount to lobby the government to enact the program.
TIZ
Posted by: TIZReporter at May 16, 2006 01:38 PM (Ht25X)
7
I hope that they do have the votes to abolish this but if they don't, wait til the next election to get their majority. Take a look at this beauty about the libs:
The former Liberal government cooked the books on the much-maligned gun registry program, ignoring legal advice and hiding the true cost of the registry from Parliament, says the auditor general.
While the 10-year cost of the registry through the end of fiscal 2005 has been pegged at $946 million - just below an earlier $1 billion estimate - government officials went to great lengths to obscure the true annual tally, including spreading the accounting of past spending over the next 15 years.
I hope the CPC gets rid of this and does not change it instead.
Posted by: None at May 16, 2006 02:33 PM (foCCg)
8
All supporters of the gun registry can Blow Me!
Posted by: PGP at May 16, 2006 03:18 PM (iv01O)
9
The question of votes may be irrelevant. If the government doesn't appropriate money for the long-firearm registry, the Opposition can't force it to spend any (an increase to an appropriation can only be proposed by a Minister). Then, the Opposition's choice would be either to accept an appropriation bill with zero being spent on the long-firearm registry, or to bring down the government on the whole supply vote.
It's interesting to have people on the Treasury benches that actually care about the public purse, isn't it? ;o)
Posted by: Jim Whyte at May 16, 2006 03:49 PM (/WgcG)
10
http://www.theinfozone.net/SALW/Canada.html#AlbinaGuarnieri
Missed solutions?
Lost in the discussion today is the report that Albina Guarnieri prepared in 2004 for Anne Mclellan.
Guarnieri's report, which was declared a cabinet secret apparently suggested taking rifles and shotguns out of the registry, and decriminalization of many registry offences.
TIZ
Posted by: TIZReporter at May 16, 2006 04:59 PM (Ht25X)
11
Harper and co. are going to axe the registry because they have to. The grass roots of the Conservative party will boot them if they don't. It will likely be worth it to Harper to make it a confidence vote, and dare the opposition to vote it down.
Chicken is a game best played when you have a bigger truck than the other guy. Harper's got an 18 wheeler this time.
Posted by: The Phantom at May 16, 2006 04:59 PM (nAMT1)
12
>Let's see...guns primary utility is to kill.
Not really. Context matters. The utility of a firearm in possession of a collector or shooter or hunter is not to kill people.
>Governments' primary imperative is public safety.
Governments' primary imperative is the continuation of government.
>Nope, no public interest in tracking firearms ownership here.
There is no public interest in tracking firearms. Based on historical trends, we know with high confidence that a renegade person with a firearm is likely to kill at most a few people, while a renegade government unopposed by force is likely to kill millions.
Posted by: lrC at May 16, 2006 06:39 PM (XDL9B)
13
Lost amid all the economics is the admission that there is absolutely no empirical evidence to show the gun registry actually made anyone safer. After a billion dollars and ten year the Liberals say it is "too soon" to tell if it worked at all much less was better than other uses for the money.
the whole thing was based on the myth that more guns equals more crime. Britian banned guns and crime skyrocketed. The US increased the number of guns by 70 million mostly pistols and brought in concealed carry for the lawabiding crime has dropped dramatically
the whole registry is based on the strange assumption that cracking down on the easy to get at law abiding at great cost will hamper the few and criminal. In the meantime the RCMP starved for funds admit they are simply ignoring a large % of organized crime and the organized drug gangs that are actually doing the shooting!
Posted by: Bruce at May 16, 2006 07:37 PM (+fvpG)
14
The more I see of the scum that infect the Liberals and the NDP the more that I'm thinking that it will take several terms of Conservative Majority to correct the garbage that these Moonbats have brought in.
Voting out the appointment of the Ethics Commissioner because of an NDP motion that his comments on immigration were "inappropriate" makes me gag.
Pat
Posted by: Pat at May 16, 2006 08:21 PM (bxOjK)
15
I wonder at the person who equates gun ownership with a threat to his neighbours safety. Most people who own rifles have them because they hunt or at least once hunted or the gun was handed down from a father or a grandfather who took pride in that ownership. In many cases the rifle may be the only article that the gun owner has that once belonged to an ancestor. Surely he should not be ashamed to claim it as his own ; nor should he pay fees so that he can keep this in his family. The public should take a hard look at the rhetoric that has been preached by the anti gun folk before they take sides on this one.
Posted by: crowbar at May 16, 2006 08:48 PM (FpDva)
16
It seems strange that the major benefactor of the registry (RCMP, police) have been very silent on this matter. Apparently there have been approximately 5.2 million information requests from law enforcement agencies into the registry. Are there any law enforcement people reading this that would like to comment?
Regards
Posted by: at May 16, 2006 08:53 PM (Y/OkV)
17
Harper needs votes in Quebec and the major cities to get his desired majority.
Quebec support for the gun registry is strong, as it is in the major metropolitan areas. Ontario has come out today and joined Quebec in opposing any attempts to kill the Gun Registry.
Public statements by the Police Chiefs that the Registry is a valuable police tool will also make it difficult for the Harperites to kill this.
And there is no reason to make this into a "Confidence" Vote. It will be seen for what it is - an attempt to bully it thru Parliament over the bogus threat of an election.
Posted by: Scott Tribe at May 16, 2006 09:24 PM (y0YEf)
18
Regards,
The RCMP is silent because the registry does not provide them with useful information. Even if they use it to find out if the address they are getting a 911 call from has any guns registered, that doesn't tell them if there will be any guns in play when they get there.
People seem to have a hard time understanding this. Just because the database says the household doesn't own a gun does NOT mean that some schmuck didn't bring one there today.
Plus, as the Fraser report says, the registry database is riddled with errors. It is not a useful police tool.
Well, unless somebody wants to collect guns from the law abiding citizens who registered. Then its a great thing.
Posted by: The Phantom at May 16, 2006 09:47 PM (nAMT1)
19
It seems strange that the major benefactor of the registry (RCMP, police) have been very silent on this matter.
Open your ears, oh anonymous one. The RCMP, as an organization, doesn't comment on government policy because it's inappropriate to do so. Groups like the Association of Chiefs of Police will comment occasionally but it's not unusually about something politically charged like the Gun Registry.
Individual officers might offer their opinions but that's all it is... their opinions. Here's mine- the Firearms Registry is a boondoggle and a damn expensive one at that. The whole thing should be flushed as quickly as possible.
I can explain the "millions of checks" of the CFAR for you. Checking the CFAR is a simple for cops as checking the appropriate box on the computer screen when doing the "usual" checks (ie: for warrants, parole, undertakings, valid driver's licence, whatever) so, yup, it gets checked. Does it provide meaningful information? Not likely.
The big "it'll save cops" schtick is nonsense of the first order. It's a question of too many ifs.
Let's say a cop is rolling to a domestic dispute. The 911 operator gets a call which is basically a scream of pain with a roar of anger in the background. The cop has the dispatcher do as many checks as possible. The ifs begin....
-if the phone number comes up to a full name, not a name & initial
-if the name associated to the phone is accurate (some folks deliberately register false names on phone)
-if the name isn't so common as to make CFAR searchs meaningless without further details
-if the person in question did the registration instead of having someone else do it for them
-if they bothered to register at all
What ends up happening is the dispatcher searches all databases available to police and tries to find further details, hoping to make the CFAR search meaningful.
Chances are the cops will be at the scene and well into the thick of things before it's possible to make a meaningful search... ie: it's too late to do any good... and it's not guaranteed to do any good because criminals don't register their guns.
Posted by: Mac at May 16, 2006 09:58 PM (TaDbz)
20
I haven't paid much attention to the registry debate until now. Reading up on it one thing is clear it always has been a mess. The planning, the execution, the management, all of it has been a mess from the start. I have no confidence that it has registered anywhere near all the guns, nor that those that are registered are correctly recorded. As painful as it is to realize that 2 billion dollars have been thrown down the toilet that is indeed what I believe. I say stop the bleeding now before we waste any more tax dollars.
Posted by: steve d. at May 16, 2006 10:34 PM (sw5R/)
21
Doesn't work, look at statistical comparisons of Canada's long-gun murder rate versus the U.S. One you deomographically adjust the populations to be similar - the rates are near identical over the past 50 years. One country has a registry, one does not. This ultimately should dispel the notion that a long-gun registry would prevent violent crime.
Posted by: Mitch at May 17, 2006 03:42 AM (RYq1y)
22
Thanks for the replies to my question. Mac you can leave the sarcasm behind.Your obviously very knowledgeable. It was a straight forward question with no political overtone whatsoever. I was just looking for intelligent responses.Yours didn't start out that way but ended up being so.
Regards
Posted by: at May 17, 2006 04:57 AM (YH7t5)
23
The Conservatives are at 40% in the polls.
The Liberals are just itching to have an election with Bill Graham as leader to explain to Canadians why the CFAR is such a good deal.
The Bloc are losing support to the Conservatives in those rural areas of Quebec where the gun registry is no more popular than other rural areas of Canada.
And the Opposition is going to show up to vote on a bill to transfer the registry to the RCMP and provide indefinite amnesty to non registered owners?
Because a year or so from now, or whenever the Conservatives have a majority, an inoccuous little report will surface from the Public Accounts Committee that the RCMP has determined the registry is not worth the money to continue.
The devil is the details.
Posted by: john at May 17, 2006 05:14 AM (jWvfJ)
24
Everyone knew from the beginning that this was going to be a mess - I knew it, you knew it, even my cat knew it. After all, it was fronted by Allan Rock for gosh sakes!
That it was just a cash grab became obvious when you had to renew your registry. Renew? I thought that to register something you just had to do it once. But then again, I'm not fluent in Liberal.
And of course, there was the most obvious problem of all: criminals don't register their guns. Though for the life of me I can't figure out why.
Posted by: Ron at May 17, 2006 08:16 AM (DMNja)
25
"Quebec support for the gun registry is strong,"
Ironic though that the most outrage over liberals cooking the books is higher than support for this program, particularly in Quebec.
The fate of the program is less important than the fact it was used to defraud taxpayers by the liberals.
As for the usefulness of the registry, did it save the lives of the RCMP officers in Mayerthorpe? Or how about that Constable in Quebec that was gunned down by a perp that wasn't even suppose to have a gun?
If it even saves one life? News flash, it won't save even one life. Getting criminals arrested does. Registries don't do that.
Posted by: gimbol at May 17, 2006 09:33 AM (zElnE)
26
"That it was just a cash grab became obvious when you had to renew your registry. Renew? I thought that to register something you just had to do it once. But then again, I'm not fluent in Liberal."
You might want to check your car's licence plate - you know, you have to renew your registration on that every year. They give you a little sticker.
This little message has been brought to you by the reality-based community.
Posted by: Tybalt at May 17, 2006 01:13 PM (46+Ay)
27
"News flash, it won't save even one life."
We don't know how many lives were saved by (for example) the 2,500 mentally ill people who were turned down for registration since the registry began. We can't. Maybe none - I'm still happy they're doing it.
(Yes, I own guns - registered ones. Are yours?)
Posted by: Tybalt at May 17, 2006 01:15 PM (46+Ay)
28
"We don't know how many lives were saved by (for example) the 2,500 mentally ill people who were turned down for registration since the registry began. We can't. Maybe none - I'm still happy they're doing it."
As a gun owner, you would know that the circumstance you refer to has nothing to do with the "registry". Rather, that is what licensing is for. So are you stupid or just a bad liar?
Posted by: Weinstein at May 17, 2006 01:53 PM (Btb/K)
29
Getting rid of the long-gun registry - there has been a handgun registry since the 1930s - is being framed by the Conservatives as necessary because it is too costly to maintain. In fact, the issue is more about ideology: whether or not a registry should exist at all.
After all, if the registry was beneficial to society, then the Conservatives could demonstrate they are truly different than the Liberals by making it more efficient and cost-effective, instead of just demolishing it.
However, it seems clear this is less about money and more about appeasing a rural/Western Conservative base, who are more likely to own long guns than others, and the general idea of having a registry for these weapons at all, regardless of its cost-effectiveness.
I'm not quite sure where I stand on this issue. On the one hand, we accept a handgun registry and we a vehicle registry, so clearly having a registry of things that can kill people is something we accept. And these registries appear to work, so there seems to be no reason why a long gun registry could not be similarly effective.
On the other hand, I'm not entirely convinced that the state needs to keep track of everyone's weapons. I'm still a little paranoid about what may lie ahead in the future; if we are, say, invaded by the Americans, the long gun registry would probably be the first thing they'd want control over, to track down the people likely to take potshots at them.
This might seem a little crazy, but the same principle is embedded in the US Constitution.
When it comes to cops, police should probably automatically assume the people why wish to apprehend are armed, and operate accordingly. Having a long-gun registry seems little more than a way of cops saying, "Okay, we ought to be extra careful at this house." But perhaps they ought to be extra careful at every house.
Posted by: Ade at May 17, 2006 02:21 PM (4p91Z)
30
It is ironic to read lefties complaining that ending the Firearm Registry is strictly politics rather than public safety... since the motivation for the creation of Firearm Registry was strictly politics rather than public safety.
If public safety was the issue, the Liberals could have purchased a secure gun locker and trigger lock for every gun in Canada with the amount of money thrown away on this ten year exercise in stupidity known as a registry.
Posted by: Mac at May 17, 2006 10:45 PM (TaDbz)
31
Weinstein has posed what's called in the trade a false dichotomy. The man can easily be both, and indeed, it looks like he is.
Posted by: ebt at May 18, 2006 03:47 PM (7y2db)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
May 15, 2006
Traitor!
In the struggle to oust David Emerson for the crime of representing the people who elected him, the tone has often gotten nasty. People have been arrested after pushing and shoving at sit-ins, for example.
As we all know, Emerson was elected by the people of Vancounver-Kingsway while running for the Liberals. He crossed the floor to join the new Harper cabinet, a move that has been endorsed by the premier of British Columbia and the mayor of Vancouver. Nevertheless, there are many people trying to force a new by-election.
One of those people is Manuel Pereda. He is not a political operator like anti-Emerson activist Kevin Chalmers, but works for a Vancouver renovations company.
Perhaps that explains Pereda's effort to meet Emerson half-way:
Emerson spoke briefly about the tone of his recent meeting with protester Manuel Pereda, which recently broke new ground in establishing a line of communication between the two groups.
"Mr. Pereda and I are in many respects not that far apart," Emerson said. "The issues are really more complex than most people really know about with crossing the floor... If you're going to not let people cross the floor then you are putting more power in the hands of the political party and is that truly a democracy?"
A constructive meeting? An effort to find a way to make those constituents of Vancouver-Kingsway who are angry realize they are still represented in Ottawa?
Then why this curious statement?
Both Manuel Pereda and the De-Elect Emerson Campaign have said that Manuel Pereda acted on his own in meeting with Emerson.
Pereda the traitor? The De-Elect Emerson Campaign is the operation run by Kevin Chalmers, a former Emerson campaign worker and a Liberal Party operator.
Apparently the problem was that Emerson had set a condition on the meeting with Pereda. Since Emerson has stated he is unwilling to resign, he felt any meeting on that topic would be a waste of time. But could there still be a useful discussion without getting into resignations?
Pereda thought so. Kevin Chalmers, on his website, makes it clear that any meeting with Emerson must focus on Emerson's resignation:
Recently, after being forced by the presence of national media to accept a constituent's meeting request, Emerson met with one of the many disenfranchised voters of this riding. Emerson only agreed to do so only on the condition that the voter, Manuel Pereda, vowed to not demand for his resignation.
The Campaign to De-Elect David Emerson finds this price of admission far too high.
And that's why Kevin Chalmers doesn't get a meeting, while Manuel Pereda has actually seen some progress, as reported on Pereda's website:
After the meeting, Mr. Pereda stated that he planned to abandon his demands for Mr. Emerson’s resignation, as the minister’s mind is set and Mr. Pereda prefers to use his energy to begin a broader, non-partisan debate on the electoral system. Mr. Pereda’s stance aims at opening the dialogue with all political parties and citizens groups to encourage the start of electoral reform debates. Mr. Pereda made it clear that his stance represents the view of only some of the Message in the Air supporters and that he will continue to applaud the efforts of other groups demanding a new by-election.
Amusingly, Pereda was also forced to highlight the schism in the anti-Emerson crusade (while at the same time trying to downplay it):
Members of the media have been asked to correct reports that were published stating that Mr.Pereda is still a leader of the Campaign to De-elect David Emerson. Mr. Pereda was one of the initiators of the CDDE but he is no longer directly involved in that campaign. Mr. Pereda still has De-elect Emerson signs outside his home because he supports the idea of keeping the issue alive until electoral reform debates get started. Mr. Pereda now chairs the Message in the Air Society.
One wonders if there were any fireworks at the meeting between Chalmers and Pereda. Did Pereda try to convince the true believers at the CDDE that his way was likely to pay dividends? Did Pereda leave, or was he given the bum's rush out the door?
Why is Kevin Chalmers being so dogmatic? Why won't he participate with Pereda in an effort to reform the electoral system in an organized and measured manner instead of relying on sit-ins and airplane stunts?
As Manuel Pereda said, he is interested in the "broader" debate. Chalmers is only interested in Emerson. For Chalmers, this is personal. When something is personal like that, it is either because that specific person has been seriously hurt (so this is about vengeance) or that specific person stands to gain tremendously by winning (so this is about fame and fortune). My gut tells me Chalmers thinks he has something to gain from taking Emerson down -- the fame and fortune motive. That's why he's not interested in the broader implications of electoral reform, and that's why he has no time for people like Pereda who aren't willing to stay focused on Emerson to the exclusion of all else.
The real question is, though, whether there are other people like Pereda in the CDDE who just want to have the same discussion Pereda had, and so can be pealed away from Chalmers.
Posted by: Steve Janke at
09:15 PM
| Comments (23)
| Add Comment
Post contains 884 words, total size 6 kb.
1
Chalmers and his ilk resemble the WWII Japanese soldiers who hid for years in the jungle because they refused to believe the war was over.
Maybe some day these anti-Emerson folks will find legitimate work and get on with their lives. They're not just annoying, they are boring...
Posted by: Bruce at May 15, 2006 09:31 PM (QPPwV)
2
Remember how, a hundred days ago, this was going to be a one-day story?
Posted by: Ed Minchau at May 16, 2006 01:17 AM (pPVQ0)
3
and to think it started in Vancouver, In Canada, with a de-elect protest that had 6 people, none from his riding, protesting outside his office with more media covering it then actual protesters... On our streets, In Canada, with video camera's...
I can say this because I drove by it on the way home from work and laughed about it as I drove past the protest...because unlike the retiree that was on the radio, the professional protestors that are on the doll, voicing there concern having riden down from the interior to voice their concern, I still work and pay taxes for their income that allowed him to protest, on our streets, in Canada....with my money....
ah yes, the unemployeds freedoms, what our hard earned tax dollars in Canada are paying for on our streets...
Posted by: MrEd at May 16, 2006 03:27 AM (8C0v5)
4
In the struggle to oust David Emerson for the crime of representing the people who elected him, the tone has often gotten nasty.
Whoa here. I don't tolerate liberal lies and I certainly won't tolerate conservatives lying as it ruins our good name here.
Emerson would have represented those who elected him if he stayed as a Liberal. After all, that is how he ran. Please don't give partisan garbage here. If he stayed a Liberal until the next election, he would have represented those who voted for him. As it is, he is not representing any of them at this time.
Posted by: None at May 16, 2006 09:11 AM (foCCg)
5
Remember how, a hundred days ago, this was going to be a one-day story?
Yes, thats what is annoying about this. It was and it is. This is just the politcal equivalent to "white noise" It irritates me but helps some people go to sleep.
Posted by: Eric at May 16, 2006 09:27 AM (5QZgs)
6
Remember how, a hundred days ago, this was going to be a one-day story?
Yes, thats what is annoying about this. It was and it is. This is just the political equivalent to "white noise" It irritates me but helps some people go to sleep.
Posted by: Eric at May 16, 2006 09:27 AM (5QZgs)
7
"Emerson would have represented those who elected him if he stayed as a Liberal. After all, that is how he ran. Please don't give partisan garbage here. If he stayed a Liberal until the next election, he would have represented those who voted for him. As it is, he is not representing any of them at this time.
-Posted by None"
Whoa, that is soo wrong, so very wrong. Once elected you represent EVERYONE in your riding. The people who actually voted for you do not have a special right to the member-elect's solicitation. YOU ARE VERY VERY DANGEROUSLY WRONG!!!
Posted by: Eric at May 16, 2006 09:32 AM (5QZgs)
8
This is part of the NDP strategy of out-flanking the Liberals on the left. The NDP are establishing themselves as more sanctimonious, more anti-American, more peace-loving, more enviromenatlly conscious, etc etc. All at a time when the Libs are leaderless, and not sure where to "plant their flag", as Ignatief said. But
Layton needs to do more than just rant and rave, he needs some kind of concrete action.
If Layton was any kind of negotiator like Harper, then he would arrange some kind of merger with the Green Party.
The appropriate punishment for all their criminality is for the Libs to be squeezed right off the federal poltical map. Harper has the killer instincts to do it but Layton is sorely lacking.
Posted by: Calgary Junkie at May 16, 2006 11:21 AM (POZhF)
9
Thanks for this interesting background on the subtleties among some in the anti-Emerson crowd.
Posted by: Joan Tintor at May 16, 2006 11:41 AM (dNLUH)
10
Whoa, that is soo wrong, so very wrong. Once elected you represent EVERYONE in your riding. The people who actually voted for you do not have a special right to the member-elect's solicitation. YOU ARE VERY VERY DANGEROUSLY WRONG!!!
Yes, you do represent everyone. Read again, I just quoted Steve Janke here. Read the first sentence to this entry, then, get back to me.
Posted by: at May 16, 2006 02:07 PM (foCCg)
11
Whoa, that is soo wrong, so very wrong. Once elected you represent EVERYONE in your riding. The people who actually voted for you do not have a special right to the member-elect's solicitation. YOU ARE VERY VERY DANGEROUSLY WRONG!!!
Yes, you do represent everyone. Read again, I just quoted Steve Janke here. Read the first sentence to this entry, then, get back to me.
Posted by: None at May 16, 2006 02:09 PM (foCCg)
12
Anyways, what I meant in that post Eric, was that those people who voted for a Liberal member of Parliament were superceded and that's wrong, no matter what the circumstances. They've removed the democratic vote of Canadians. This is completly wrong. If it isn't considered wrong, we might as well not have any political parties and just have a set of names to vote for and let it be a free-for-all in Parliament.
The NDP protests this, they're just doing it for political gain because they would accept someone doing the same thing if they crossed over to them, but who would want to do that?
The libs were calling this different. Lying as usual basically because they suppported floor-crossing and never set any boundaries whatsoever.
I was hoping that the CPC would hold on to democracy here and what the voters decide, is what the voters decide.
Posted by: None at May 16, 2006 02:16 PM (foCCg)
13
I see in the Vancouver Sun today a little article titled "Emerson critic still dissatisfied" about Manuel Pereda. Basically an opportunity to bash Harper. This is the same paper that mentions that 2/3 of Canadians want some sort of gun registry, but fail to mention that 54% of Canadians want the run registry as it stands now to be abolished. Liberal lap dogs all.
Posted by: morison at May 16, 2006 04:09 PM (DRtQx)
14
It is downright amusing reading how the defenders of Emerson's floor crossing sounds so much like the defenders of anything that the previous government did while they were in power.
To me this just proves that regardless of your political bent, the old adage that power corrupts politicians should be amended to read, "supporters of the party in power can be counted on to defend the policies of their particular party even though those same policies were ridicued when proposed by another political party".
In broad daylight, on Canadian streets, in political circles and coffeee shops that's the reality of politics in this country, pity, Eh?
Cheers
Posted by: Guardsman at May 16, 2006 06:48 PM (gotK9)
15
"It is downright amusing reading how the defenders of Emerson's floor crossing sounds so much like the defenders of anything that the previous government did while they were in power."
Politicians are given rules. So long as they follow these rules, they may use them to achieve their goals. I'm no expert, but I do know that in Canada, MPs are subject to rigid control by their party leaders. Floor crossing is one of the few ways an MP can exercise their own judgement.
Guardsman, you are claiming that power has "corrupted" the current government and its supporters because they have acommodated a floor crosser while in the past they criticised a certain floorcrosser who defected to their opponents. Last I heard, floor crossing is a legal right in the House. How is it corrupt to exercise a legal right? The critics of Stronach were, for the most part, criticising her motives, not the floor crossing.
Lose the hyperbole.
Posted by: Matt at May 16, 2006 08:30 PM (68H83)
16
I thought this dead horse was already at the glue factory! You mean there's still a few around who want to flog it? Wow. That's..... pathetic.
Posted by: Mac at May 16, 2006 10:04 PM (TaDbz)
17
Politicians are given rules. So long as they follow these rules, they may use them to achieve their goals. I'm no expert, but I do know that in Canada, MPs are subject to rigid control by their party leaders. Floor crossing is one of the few ways an MP can exercise their own judgement.
Matt, I appreciate your point of view here. I think that as voters we should allow MP's to leave their party, but not cross over to one. Become an Independent and then run for another party if they so choose in a by-election. Right now, bribes are becomming too common under the libs and then this one by the CPC.
Posted by: None at May 17, 2006 10:18 AM (foCCg)
18
One minor correction to your story; Kevine Chalmers is no longer associated with the campaign, at least publicly. As reported on CKNW, April 8:
"A vocal member of the De-Elect Emerson campaign has stepped aside. Kevin Chalmers, a former senior volunteer for Emerson's Liberal election campaigns and spokesperson for the De-Elect campaign , has decided to take a step back. Chalmers will be playing a role in various Liberal leadership candidate campaigns and wanted to ensure there was no conflict of interest in his roles. Mike Watkins has now taken over as spokesperson for the group."
Chalmers' exit explains why Campaign activity has fallen over the past month. However, his cover story sounds a bit far-fetched. There are other more plausible reasons for his departure.
One is that Watkins and Chalmers had begun to disagree publicly over strategy. Just the previous week, Watkins blasted Chalmers, on his daily anti-Emerson blog, for "grandstanding" at the Campaign's recent Olympic village protest.
Another would be the public outing of Chalmers in March as not even a constituent in Vancouver-Kingsway, a story which AFAIK you broke, Steve.
As always, thought you might like to look at:
http://tinyurl/huyld
Posted by: George Dance at May 17, 2006 05:29 PM (tHs3S)
19
NEWS FLASH! Stephen Harper has just announced that he and twenty-five other MPs have torn up their CPC membership cards and crossed the floor to join the Liberals, under a deal that will see Harper remain as Prime Minister. Harper now says he will expand the gun registry, nationalize the oil industry, withdraw Canadian troops from Afghanistan, legalize marijuana and cocaine, and lower the age of consent. He also said that President Bush is a moron who can "kiss my ****." When asked whether he thought Conservative voters would feel betrayed, Harper said, "Get over it. They elected me to represent them, and that's what I'm doing."
Posted by: Aeolus at May 17, 2006 06:54 PM (itXUD)
20
Steve and Eric
NONE is correct. Emerson was elected as a liberal. He told the voters he was supporting the Liberal platform. That is why he won.
The next reason he is not representing the voters of his riding is that the Conservative platform only garnered 20% of the vote. 80% of the voters don't support what Emerson is now supporting. He was not elected to go to the highest bidder, he was elected to stand for certain principles, most of which happen to be left of centre. Left of centre is where 80% of his constituents are. There is no way he can represent his constituents politically from where he sits. Everything he votes for in Parliament will be against the wishes of the vast majority of his constituents so how can he be said to be representing them?
Posted by: steve d. at May 17, 2006 08:14 PM (sw5R/)
21
Of course, those constituents who voted for representation in cabinet got what they voted for.
And so did those constituents who voted for an MP with the right to cross the floor. Which is to say, all of them.
Posted by: ebt at May 18, 2006 03:50 PM (7y2db)
22
Yes,exactly. Some of those who voted for Emerson (I'd say a rather high number in the Chinese-Canadian community) were voting for a cabinet minister, or at least a representative in government. Some of them voted for Emerson personally, for reasons from his business experience to his cleanness. Some - a rather large number, judging from the low Conservative vote - were Conservatives who voted for Emerson to keep the NDP from winning the riding.
It's preposterous to say that any of those voters felt outraged or betrayed by Dr. Emerson's defection.
Posted by: George Dance at May 20, 2006 02:55 PM (V8DQH)
23
Interracial Tinternet marketer ha ha ha
Posted by: outlet at December 18, 2012 05:56 PM (Ts3J4)
Hide Comments
| Add Comment
352kb generated in CPU 0.0636, elapsed 0.1423 seconds.
113 queries taking 0.0977 seconds, 623 records returned.
Powered by Minx 1.1.6c-pink.